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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
im confused , i take it by the have you ever read the bible cover to cover , you have?
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Yes I have.
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
so i will ask have you ever read the Qu'ran for that matter or maybe the Veda ? or maybe the scripts of the Jedi ?
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I've read some pretty big chunks of the Koran, not the Veda...And scripts of the Jedi?? Are you actually taking the piss or are you one of those tools who thought by putting 'Jedi' on a census form it would become a recognised religion?
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
my guess is no ...
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Guess again.
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
you are taking dawkins views and degenerating them into thoughtless attacks on people who follow religion aswell as the religion as a whole ..
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Wrong again. I am stating MY views, not Dawkins', not Hitchens', not Shermer's, not Miller's....MINE. That they happen to intersect in several places with the views of others is entirely coincidental. As for being 'thoughtless', my 'attacks' are anything but. These things really MATTER to me, because I feel that people are wasting their lives on a load of Dark Ages bullshit that should have been dumped centuries ago.
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
damning everone and anything that does not follow your set of views/lifestyle doesnt help the scope of this thread , instead it riles people, and admitedly me, into discussions about proving right or wrong , when you cant do either.
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What I am doing is stating my views, backing up those views with sound reasons and logical arguments, and then asking the 'faithful' to come up with a convincing counter argument. So far all they've managed is some vague waffle about 'not taking it all literally' (successfully gunned down as a standpoint) and some pantheist knobrot. Then they've mostly fucked off, leaving the questions asked of them hanging...
As for proving whether religion is 'right' or 'wrong' - it IS something that can be done. In every single one of us posting here's lifetime we will find out for CERTAIN. I've got (if I'm lucky) about 60 or 70 years before I find out, you've probably got about 70 or 80. I'm willing to bet my 'eternal soul' on there being no 'god' and no life after death, I'm that confident in the inherent flaws in religious doctrine and belief.
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
My friend and I , had a chat about this thread and came to a conclusion ( i can't take credit ) that religion is not "wrong ", but slightly redundant in this day and age
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Utterly redundant I would say....
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
as many of the religious based morals are imbedded into what we call "laws" and therefore alot of the good that religion ( granted this is highly aimed at christianity) has brought has been used and adapted to modern morals- enforced by laws- derived from religion: we see this in every country.
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Oh that is SO much guff! 'Laws derived from religion'???
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
Here comes the " we would have morals regardless of religion" from TheeAlex , yeah we would but they wouldnt be the same necessarily
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First correct guess of the whole post! They would be the 'same necessarily' because, like it or not,
that's how we got them!! Religion DID NOT develop
before our species had worked out the benefits of understanding basic 'right' and 'wrong' behaviours, rather as a
result of it.
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
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From a quick scan through that document it seems that they're actually saying pretty much the same as I when it comes to the development of a basic 'moral' framework in species. Not sure why you've posted that, if you're trying to argue the opposite.
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
It is intersting in this case, that although he doesnt support that religion directly controls morals , he does identify that morals are not innate and are developed around the inputs of our environment, which i agree with,
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'Morals' are a direct, naturally selected, result of evolution (see the previous 'two tribes' explanation). Of course the environment affects this.... Again, your point seems to be entirely muddled.
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
but I do think that religion was a way someone chose to control how morals are formed,
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So this pre-cognitive ancestor of ours invented religion
first?
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
a way to stop those who were in group (a): the murdering ravenous community , from murdering and stealing , although it would still occur it allowed the idea of punishment for your sins/lawbreaking and possibly make you think twice about it with the impending punishment but if group (a) had no religion/laws and in fact if group (b) didnt have them either then you would have to murder and steal to survive as there is no controlling factor ,
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Nonsense. You are using the typical pro-religious argument that morals only exist because of religion. By your argument I should be utterly immoral, as I have no imperative to act in any other way. But I
know that murder is wrong, not because I've been taught that, but because the idea disgusts me to the core of my being. If I only thought it was bad because I thought I might be punished for it then I wouldn't feel any sadness when I hear someone has died or been murdered. As I do, I would counter that we have a basic sense of 'right' and 'wrong' that has developed via evolution.
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
particularly as Morals are not innate, so if they are not innate they are controlled by your environment , but wheres the starting point.
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Only they ARE innate, in a very basic form. The starting point is simply survival of the fittest. The concept is startlingly easy and I don't understand why you're having so much trouble with it.
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Originally Posted by Thebigyin04
i am going to stop here because i am tired i am actually not even sure if this example makes any sense anymore .. it does to me , but then i know where i am coming from
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Well, I'm glad you know where you're coming from, cos after that I haven't a clue if you even understand the basic concepts.