Local Band Gigs at Fat Sams

petpiranha · 12th April 2006, 07:57 PM

Hi everyone in a local band,

it appears that Fat Sams are organising a monthly unsigned night which will feature both local acts and out of town bands. There's no tickets to sell but there will be no payment available for bands. If you want a no hassle, free gig then it's a useful opportunity.

However, I would point out that on a busy night it has the potential to make the venue a fair amount of money in bar takings while the bands are not paid anything. If it isn't busy the promoter should be better at his job and not book local bands that no-one wants to hear. Example, if popular bands like The View, The Rise, The Law and Rising Signs play there, how much money do you think they'll make over the bar? A lot. If I was in one of those bands, I'd know my worth and want payment. Bands have expenses too, not just venues!

Venues always trot out the same line: overheads, staff wages, expenses, etc. Well I have a house which is expensive to maintain (electricity, gas, etc) but I wouldn't offer you the opportunity to come round and paint it for free and say that it would be an ideal opportunity for you to showcase your ability as a painter - and expect you to be grateful for it.

Be wise, and don't be exploited.

Fat Sams has the potential to put on great shows so I hope this development can become a positive aspect of our local music scene.

Fritz · 12th April 2006, 08:31 PM

Agreed.

Dundee for years has been in desperate need of a proper gig venue for touring acts. Here's hoping Fat Sams can supply it.

Wee_rick · 12th April 2006, 08:49 PM

Me and Lee were in seeing about this a few weeks ago and after talking to fraiser it seems pretty cool. I know what your saying about the bands getting paid thing but to be honest, local bands play pretty much every gig without seeing a penny, It's really not About the money. If your playing to a packed pub then your bound to start to gain a following of fans. Playing tons of free gigs has got the middens (my band) a lot of fans in the short amount of time we've been around.

Keerin · 13th April 2006, 09:48 AM

aye, but as cool as it is to play gigs in pubs where you used to go watch bands, Fat sams is a "professional" venue and should treat the bands that play there as professionals too. respect works both ways...

also, i can't see fat sams becoming a regular venue for anything but safe indie/chart music.

rising signs · 13th April 2006, 10:20 AM

I got a phone call from Fraser asking us to play on the 1st of June so looking forward to playing the venue.

They supply the whole backline for you and take care of all the promotional work.

I do see what your saying about the money etc but all of us have full time jobs at the moment and to be honest we dont do it for the money.
We will happily play a gig for free(though if you wanna give us free beer then we wont say no

)
the only time we usually charge is if we have to pay the PA like the Westie etc.
As long as the band isnt out of pocket for playing then its all good.

After speaking to Fraser i dont think these nights will be limited to so called "safe music".I for one hope it isnt anyway cause i enjoy playing with bands completely different from ourselves though the chance rarely comes up.

petpiranha · 13th April 2006, 10:38 AM

"we dont do it for the money"

Who does?!? Being in a local band is hardly a profitable hobby!

So what is it then, passion? love of music? local fame? fun? The difference is bands are a lot more willing to make other people money. You'd be hard pressed to find a painter who'd do your house for free just to showcase his ability. Did you ever think that the best way to showcase your ability is tell venues that you are worth being paid? Wedding bands know their worth - do local bands?

You're basically saying "we're not worth anything".

And to me that seems a bit naieve when it's a local band gig. If it was a support slot to a touring band, then fair enough because you'll probably play to people who didn't come to see you.

I am 100% behind Fat Sams or any other venue in Dundee giving local bands an opportunity to find an audience. But the last time I checked they are a business and they want to make money. For example, King Tuts in Glasgow have started 'Your Sound' nights once a month on a Sunday. They've turned one of the slowest days in the week into one of the busiest. Now once a month every ambitious local band in glasgow goes there to hand in a demo and/or network - and Tuts are making a KILLING over the bar. I mean, how badly do you want to be famous?

I have lost count of the number (thousands probably) of ambitious local Scottish bands that I've seen spend their entire existence making other people money who, by the time they split up, have achieved nothing of any value or importance artistically.

rising signs · 13th April 2006, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petpiranha

"we dont do it for the money"

Who does?!? Being in a local band is hardly a profitable hobby!

So what is it then, passion? love of music? local fame? fun? The difference is bands are a lot more willing to make other people money. You'd be hard pressed to find a painter who'd do your house for free just to showcase his ability. Did you ever think that the best way to showcase your ability is tell venues that you are worth being paid? Wedding bands know their worth - do local bands?

You're basically saying "we're not worth anything".

And to me that seems a bit naieve when it's a local band gig. If it was a support slot to a touring band, then fair enough because you'll probably play to people who didn't come to see you.

I am 100% behind Fat Sams or any other venue in Dundee giving local bands an opportunity to find an audience. But the last time I checked they are a business and they want to make money. For example, King Tuts in Glasgow have started 'Your Sound' nights once a month on a Sunday. They've turned one of the slowest days in the week into one of the busiest. Now once a month every ambitious local band in glasgow goes there to hand in a demo and/or network - and Tuts are making a KILLING over the bar. I mean, how badly do you want to be famous?

I have lost count of the number (thousands probably) of ambitious local Scottish bands that I've seen spend their entire existence making other people money who, by the time they split up, have achieved nothing of any value or importance artistically.

I understand what your saying but again making money is not an issue that comes into it.We gig for the enjoment of it and the fact people come along to listen to our songs.
When we start playing bigger gigs etc then things like being paid by venues etc will come into it.
We actually make a lot of money from gigs we put on ourselfs,we have pretty much bought our whole backline from playing a few local gigs we have put on.

Whats your advice then?
Should all local bands refuse to play any venues until they are given a large sum of cash?

petpiranha · 13th April 2006, 11:07 AM

/Before I continue this, I'm not having a go at rising signs or any other band, I'm simply stating my own opinions/

You've already said you'll play for free. So too will most other local bands who deep down, dream about becoming famous. And as long as that desire and ambition exists, there's money to be made over the bar. That's how the music industry and venues keep going. You only have to look at the number of people that try out for pop idol to see human nature at it's worst.

My advice is look at every gig opportunity on its own merits. For some, playing a bigger venue for free will be too good to say no to. In their own eyes it will validate their worth as a band, whereas any venue would book a one-armed dancing monkey if it had 200 beer drinking mates.

Sometimes playing for free will be acceptable because of the benefits that you wouldn't normally get putting on your own show (support slot, sell a lot of merch, play to new crowd who didnt come to see you, etc). In the case of Fat Sams they could easily afford to pay a 3 band bill £50 each and make that £150 back over the bar in no time at all. It's not much but it might cover your next two sessions at stage2000. Or your van's next insurance payment, etc. But then again so could Tuts, and they would rather you felt grateful for being asked to play. It's easier to turn a profit for the venue that way.

I expect the majority of people won't listen to me. All I'm trying to do is help bands to realise that you can make things better for everyone if you stop thinking solely about yourselves. I mean how much are The Hazey Janes to book now? Should they be expected to play for free?

I'm not trying to start any arguments, but I am actively encouraging debate on this matter!

1010011010 · 13th April 2006, 11:07 AM

The point surely is....

Whilst playing in a local band in Dundee is never really going to be a money-spinner, someone else making money off your hard work is bullshit.

Fatties, as a business, perfectly reasonably wouldn't do these nights if they were going to lose out financially. They could easily pay the bands something and still make loads over the piece.

Don't get sucked in kids....by all means it's a great venue and will probably be a good gig, but don't sell yourselves short.

Let promoters take the financial hit if there's no crowd. That's the risk they take - every now and again they rake it in when a gig goes well. (this doesn't apply to all promoters by the way).

More generally, this is something I've never understood - if your band gets asked to play by a promoter then you've done your bit through word of mouth or based on your previous gigs. All you should NEED to do is turn up and play. Obviously it helps you if you get a squad of your mates along because it's not much fun playing in front of an empty venue but don't get tricked into having to sell x amount of tickets or anything like that.

You are worth more than that - promoters and venues are merely using you guys to make money and boost their reputation. Get something back from them in return.

1010011010 · 13th April 2006, 11:10 AM

Oops. We seem to have posted much the same message at the same time.

That would have saved me a load of typing....

rising signs · 13th April 2006, 11:22 AM

Its cool iam not having a go or taking offence at all.Some great points that i 100% agrree with in both posts there.
We have previously played gig's when we were a bit younger wich have ended up putting us out of a pocket and thats one thing we have all agreed to never let happen again.

Infact thats probably the reason people like Beat Generator wont ever put us on again,we were told we would never gig in this town again by John after one incident

I agree that Fatties probably will make a shit load of cash for these gigs though to be fair the new band night is in its early stages so theres no reason they might not review the pay situation once things are up and running.

Rosco the Bosco · 13th April 2006, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rising signs

They supply the whole backline for you.

Thats usually not that good a deal. Especially if they dont allow you to use your own gear if you want to.

Keerin · 13th April 2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosco the Bosco

Thats usually not that good a deal. Especially if they dont allow you to use your own gear if you want to.

I agree. It's frustrating, to say the least, when the drum kit has only one rack tom, for example, and your used to two.

12th April 2006, 07:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
petpiranha Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 278 Band: MERCURY TILT SWITCH	Local Band Gigs at Fat Sams Hi everyone in a local band, it appears that Fat Sams are organising a monthly unsigned night which will feature both local acts and out of town bands. There's no tickets to sell but there will be no payment available for bands. If you want a no hassle, free gig then it's a useful opportunity. However, I would point out that on a busy night it has the potential to make the venue a fair amount of money in bar takings while the bands are not paid anything. If it isn't busy the promoter should be better at his job and not book local bands that no-one wants to hear. Example, if popular bands like The View, The Rise, The Law and Rising Signs play there, how much money do you think they'll make over the bar? A lot. If I was in one of those bands, I'd know my worth and want payment. Bands have expenses too, not just venues! Venues always trot out the same line: overheads, staff wages, expenses, etc. Well I have a house which is expensive to maintain (electricity, gas, etc) but I wouldn't offer you the opportunity to come round and paint it for free and say that it would be an ideal opportunity for you to showcase your ability as a painter - and expect you to be grateful for it. Be wise, and don't be exploited. Fat Sams has the potential to put on great shows so I hope this development can become a positive aspect of our local music scene.

12th April 2006, 08:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
Fritz Uzi Lover Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dundee Posts: 3,122 Band: Pretty much everything I touch turns to gold. Don't know what bands I play in? You should get out more you sad fuck!	Agreed. Dundee for years has been in desperate need of a proper gig venue for touring acts. Here's hoping Fat Sams can supply it. __________________ "Are bummers deaf?"

13th April 2006, 09:48 AM	#4 (permalink)
Keerin UGS Site Writer Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: probably work Posts: 6,119 Band: Welcome Home, Explorer; Vulsellum; Altruist	aye, but as cool as it is to play gigs in pubs where you used to go watch bands, Fat sams is a "professional" venue and should treat the bands that play there as professionals too. respect works both ways... also, i can't see fat sams becoming a regular venue for anything but safe indie/chart music. __________________ Welcome Home, Explorer \|Vulsellum\|Scum Killer http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...6/scan0002.jpg

13th April 2006, 11:07 AM	#8 (permalink)
petpiranha Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 278 Band: MERCURY TILT SWITCH	/Before I continue this, I'm not having a go at rising signs or any other band, I'm simply stating my own opinions/ You've already said you'll play for free. So too will most other local bands who deep down, dream about becoming famous. And as long as that desire and ambition exists, there's money to be made over the bar. That's how the music industry and venues keep going. You only have to look at the number of people that try out for pop idol to see human nature at it's worst. My advice is look at every gig opportunity on its own merits. For some, playing a bigger venue for free will be too good to say no to. In their own eyes it will validate their worth as a band, whereas any venue would book a one-armed dancing monkey if it had 200 beer drinking mates. Sometimes playing for free will be acceptable because of the benefits that you wouldn't normally get putting on your own show (support slot, sell a lot of merch, play to new crowd who didnt come to see you, etc). In the case of Fat Sams they could easily afford to pay a 3 band bill £50 each and make that £150 back over the bar in no time at all. It's not much but it might cover your next two sessions at stage2000. Or your van's next insurance payment, etc. But then again so could Tuts, and they would rather you felt grateful for being asked to play. It's easier to turn a profit for the venue that way. I expect the majority of people won't listen to me. All I'm trying to do is help bands to realise that you can make things better for everyone if you stop thinking solely about yourselves. I mean how much are The Hazey Janes to book now? Should they be expected to play for free? I'm not trying to start any arguments, but I am actively encouraging debate on this matter! Last edited by petpiranha : 13th April 2006 at 01:42 PM.

13th April 2006, 11:07 AM	#9 (permalink)
1010011010 In all his binary finery. Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: City of Disco - Very. Posts: 1,019 Band: on the Run.	The point surely is.... Whilst playing in a local band in Dundee is never really going to be a money-spinner, someone else making money off your hard work is bullshit. Fatties, as a business, perfectly reasonably wouldn't do these nights if they were going to lose out financially. They could easily pay the bands something and still make loads over the piece. Don't get sucked in kids....by all means it's a great venue and will probably be a good gig, but don't sell yourselves short. Let promoters take the financial hit if there's no crowd. That's the risk they take - every now and again they rake it in when a gig goes well. (this doesn't apply to all promoters by the way). More generally, this is something I've never understood - if your band gets asked to play by a promoter then you've done your bit through word of mouth or based on your previous gigs. All you should NEED to do is turn up and play. Obviously it helps you if you get a squad of your mates along because it's not much fun playing in front of an empty venue but don't get tricked into having to sell x amount of tickets or anything like that. You are worth more than that - promoters and venues are merely using you guys to make money and boost their reputation. Get something back from them in return. __________________ Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find that cannot eat money.

12th April 2006, 08:49 PM	#3 (permalink)
Wee_rick Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Menziehill, Dundee Posts: 1,294	Me and Lee were in seeing about this a few weeks ago and after talking to fraiser it seems pretty cool. I know what your saying about the bands getting paid thing but to be honest, local bands play pretty much every gig without seeing a penny, It's really not About the money. If your playing to a packed pub then your bound to start to gain a following of fans. Playing tons of free gigs has got the middens (my band) a lot of fans in the short amount of time we've been around.

13th April 2006, 10:20 AM	#5 (permalink)
rising signs www.rising-signs.co.uk Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: dundee Posts: 1,436	I got a phone call from Fraser asking us to play on the 1st of June so looking forward to playing the venue. They supply the whole backline for you and take care of all the promotional work. I do see what your saying about the money etc but all of us have full time jobs at the moment and to be honest we dont do it for the money. We will happily play a gig for free(though if you wanna give us free beer then we wont say no ) the only time we usually charge is if we have to pay the PA like the Westie etc. As long as the band isnt out of pocket for playing then its all good. After speaking to Fraser i dont think these nights will be limited to so called "safe music".I for one hope it isnt anyway cause i enjoy playing with bands completely different from ourselves though the chance rarely comes up.

13th April 2006, 10:38 AM	#6 (permalink)
petpiranha Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 278 Band: MERCURY TILT SWITCH	"we dont do it for the money" Who does?!? Being in a local band is hardly a profitable hobby! So what is it then, passion? love of music? local fame? fun? The difference is bands are a lot more willing to make other people money. You'd be hard pressed to find a painter who'd do your house for free just to showcase his ability. Did you ever think that the best way to showcase your ability is tell venues that you are worth being paid? Wedding bands know their worth - do local bands? You're basically saying "we're not worth anything". And to me that seems a bit naieve when it's a local band gig. If it was a support slot to a touring band, then fair enough because you'll probably play to people who didn't come to see you. I am 100% behind Fat Sams or any other venue in Dundee giving local bands an opportunity to find an audience. But the last time I checked they are a business and they want to make money. For example, King Tuts in Glasgow have started 'Your Sound' nights once a month on a Sunday. They've turned one of the slowest days in the week into one of the busiest. Now once a month every ambitious local band in glasgow goes there to hand in a demo and/or network - and Tuts are making a KILLING over the bar. I mean, how badly do you want to be famous? I have lost count of the number (thousands probably) of ambitious local Scottish bands that I've seen spend their entire existence making other people money who, by the time they split up, have achieved nothing of any value or importance artistically.

13th April 2006, 11:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
1010011010 In all his binary finery. Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: City of Disco - Very. Posts: 1,019 Band: on the Run.	Oops. We seem to have posted much the same message at the same time. That would have saved me a load of typing.... __________________ Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find that cannot eat money.

13th April 2006, 11:22 AM	#11 (permalink)
rising signs www.rising-signs.co.uk Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: dundee Posts: 1,436	Its cool iam not having a go or taking offence at all.Some great points that i 100% agrree with in both posts there. We have previously played gig's when we were a bit younger wich have ended up putting us out of a pocket and thats one thing we have all agreed to never let happen again. Infact thats probably the reason people like Beat Generator wont ever put us on again,we were told we would never gig in this town again by John after one incident I agree that Fatties probably will make a shit load of cash for these gigs though to be fair the new band night is in its early stages so theres no reason they might not review the pay situation once things are up and running.