Frock On! - Page 2

Starla · 1st November 2003, 07:20 PM

Sorry, not getting mad at you.

Because so much has changed in the last century, it's easy to think everything's okay now.

marie · 2nd November 2003, 05:17 PM

hey fockin,

Thanks for reading the draft, i'm glad it made some kind of sense. You shouldn't feel like it's not okay to raise questions and stuff about issues you're confused about or whatever, especially when its clear that you genuinely want to think about the issues, rather than just having made your mind up and wanting to get a rise out of folks. It's great that you and the guys you know have got a basic respect for women going on. I have so many great guy friends that have too. If only that was reflected in society as a whole. As the stats show though, its not. It's also great that there's more women in the audience at shows... but that's not enough, as I'm sure you'd agree.

Frock On is a project to make society better for everybody, cause sexism is good for nobody! Nope.

marie x

marie · 2nd November 2003, 05:31 PM

>"(even tho i cant argue with facts) i dont believe that female rights are so unbalanced in this day and age - i personally know noone of the opposite sex who i regard as lower then me (on a personal/social or work related front) "

Just one more thing that occured to me. No offence, but do you think that sexism and unbalanced female rights might be more obvious to women than men? It would explain why women more than men get angry about sexism, and why though you can't argue with the stats of gender imbalances, you don't really notice sexism and stuff going on in your own life? It's kind of like, racism in society is probably a lot more obvious to a black or Asian person than it would be to you or me. (assuming you're white...)

Does that make sense?

M x

FashionWhore · 2nd November 2003, 07:10 PM

it all sounds good but im just worried that uve missed ur own point and ur actually just pushing away the only people that can make adifference. men. (do not take offense at this seein as u hav state this urself in so many words)

ur problem does not seem to be the problem of women but of men (they hav the issues otherwise women would be equal) so it seems that ur target should be men.... u hav to make them realise that u r equal rather then isolating urselves in separate women only groups thus causing men to get threatened (most will no doubt) and therfore u should attract them otherwise ther is no clear way of gainin wot u seek.

this is all just in theory tho

i do understand where ur coming from and i may just be extremely naive but i honestly c not difference in social standings between male and females - infact in this sometimes over pc world id say men are now experiancing abverse effects of this problem

FashionWhore · 2nd November 2003, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ActionAlice

Fokinrokin: it took me ages to read that post, typing in some semblance of english might help your argument a bit.

I think Frock On is a brilliant idea

i stopped readin after that

i was hoping for a mature conversation

shame

marie · 3rd November 2003, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fokinrokin

it all sounds good but im just worried that uve missed ur own point and ur actually just pushing away the only people that can make adifference. men. (do not take offense at this seein as u hav state this urself in so many words)

It sounds good because it is good. It makes sense. Men are not the only people who can make a difference to sexism. All active people in this society can challenge and change the systems within which we live.

I don't believe it's my first responsibility or Frock On's first responsibility to educate men about sexism. The first, biggest problem is empowering women, making them aware of the mechanisms of sexism and what they can do to challenge it. Our target is women, without apology. Yes, men need to start thinking about sexism. That's what this discussion and what my mini-zine is for. But ultimately, you and other intelligent, thinking men need to take responsibility for educating yourself. It's not our job. I believe you ought to think about the ways you might be privileged in society, how your life and experience might differ from say a single mother from Possil with a shitty paid cleaning job and a violent ex-partner. If we "make" men feel threatened, then that's an unfortunate side-effect of the majorly helpful positive things our project does for women. Besides which, not all men do feel threatened. So many guys help us out, cook for bands, let us borrow bits of equipment. So many men have educated themselves about the problems of gender inequalities, accept that there are problems, that they are privileged in certain ways.

It's hard to acknowledge privilege. It's hard for me to think "I have advantages every single day because I am white, because I am middle-class." But it's got to be done.

Women and girls are by far the greatest victims of domestic violence, eating disorders, rape, prostitution and genital mutilation on a huge global scale. On average, women suffer more from inequalities of pay, glass ceilings, concentration in the lowest paying jobs (low-paying often because they are about caring for others, a "female" activity), not to mention sexual harrassment on the street, at work and in the home. Everywhere female bodies are treated as objects, used to sell products.

You're not nieve. You just need to understand and accept that your experiences cannot reflect a complete picture of what is going on in the world. Sexism, racism, ablism, homophobia - they may not be your own personal experience but that does not mean they do not exist.

So I guess this is my last post on this thread. I've made all the points I've wanted to make, and cheers, its been useful for developing my minizine. I've taught enough, its your turn and your responsibility.

Marie x

ps thanks for the encouragement Alice

hey, I don't actually prefer female-only company though...it's more like its part of a process, a means to an end. I've always been in mixed gender bands cause i enjoy the different vibes and styles with mixed gender rock x

Becca Bomb · 3rd November 2003, 06:53 PM

^

well said Marie.

zipzopzap · 3rd November 2003, 11:02 PM

we could all onboard the megabus, it's just two fifty return!

xdavidx · 3rd November 2003, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ActionAlice

all male football teams.

are you still allowed them?

Becca Bomb · 4th November 2003, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X iwilt X

are you still allowed them?

You shouldnt be. You should be banned from playing any sport for 50 years and see how you like it. Turning the tables and all that.

Its women time now.

: : Scott : : · 4th November 2003, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkiconess

You shouldnt be. You should be banned from playing any sport for 50 years and see how you like it. Turning the tables and all that.

Its women time now.

yeah, because thats the way forward...

xdavidx · 4th November 2003, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkiconess

You shouldnt be. You should be banned from playing any sport for 50 years and see how you like it. Turning the tables and all that.

Its women time now.

haha I hope that was a joke

FashionWhore · 4th November 2003, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X iwilt X

haha I hope that was a joke

me too

Becca Bomb · 4th November 2003, 08:45 PM

spot the sarcasm. Also spot the element of truth.

2nd November 2003, 05:31 PM	#18 (permalink)
marie Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 11	ps >"(even tho i cant argue with facts) i dont believe that female rights are so unbalanced in this day and age - i personally know noone of the opposite sex who i regard as lower then me (on a personal/social or work related front) " Just one more thing that occured to me. No offence, but do you think that sexism and unbalanced female rights might be more obvious to women than men? It would explain why women more than men get angry about sexism, and why though you can't argue with the stats of gender imbalances, you don't really notice sexism and stuff going on in your own life? It's kind of like, racism in society is probably a lot more obvious to a black or Asian person than it would be to you or me. (assuming you're white...) Does that make sense? M x

1st November 2003, 07:20 PM	#16 (permalink)
Starla Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Dundee... I mean, Glasgow Posts: 2,065	Sorry, not getting mad at you. Because so much has changed in the last century, it's easy to think everything's okay now.

2nd November 2003, 05:17 PM	#17 (permalink)
marie Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 11	hey fockin, Thanks for reading the draft, i'm glad it made some kind of sense. You shouldn't feel like it's not okay to raise questions and stuff about issues you're confused about or whatever, especially when its clear that you genuinely want to think about the issues, rather than just having made your mind up and wanting to get a rise out of folks. It's great that you and the guys you know have got a basic respect for women going on. I have so many great guy friends that have too. If only that was reflected in society as a whole. As the stats show though, its not. It's also great that there's more women in the audience at shows... but that's not enough, as I'm sure you'd agree. Frock On is a project to make society better for everybody, cause sexism is good for nobody! Nope. marie x

2nd November 2003, 07:10 PM	#19 (permalink)
FashionWhore Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dundee Posts: 9,126	it all sounds good but im just worried that uve missed ur own point and ur actually just pushing away the only people that can make adifference. men. (do not take offense at this seein as u hav state this urself in so many words) ur problem does not seem to be the problem of women but of men (they hav the issues otherwise women would be equal) so it seems that ur target should be men.... u hav to make them realise that u r equal rather then isolating urselves in separate women only groups thus causing men to get threatened (most will no doubt) and therfore u should attract them otherwise ther is no clear way of gainin wot u seek. this is all just in theory tho i do understand where ur coming from and i may just be extremely naive but i honestly c not difference in social standings between male and females - infact in this sometimes over pc world id say men are now experiancing abverse effects of this problem

3rd November 2003, 06:53 PM	#22 (permalink)
Becca Bomb Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: the ghost train Posts: 3,738 Band: The Leatherettes	^ well said Marie.

3rd November 2003, 11:02 PM	#23 (permalink)
zipzopzap Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: mountains in snow Posts: 514	we could all onboard the megabus, it's just two fifty return!

4th November 2003, 08:45 PM	#29 (permalink)
Becca Bomb Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: the ghost train Posts: 3,738 Band: The Leatherettes	spot the sarcasm. Also spot the element of truth.