Frock On!

[Abi]

I've been studying womens and equality, in my RE class (took it for a skive) AND my AdH Spanish class, and to be honest, although I'm a girl - I am sick to death of hearing about it!

I think that by going on and on, we're beginning to give men the hard time. Women seem to expect men to treat them exactly the way they want - paying for meals, opening doors etc, but then go off their heads when they make jokes about making the tea! However, if urfemale friend asked u to make ur tea - u wouldnt see that as an infringement on ur rights.

Don't get me wrong - frock on, sounds like a good idea to get more women introduced into the music scene.
But don't u think feminism is a bit dead?

Ok, so theres the whole unequal pay thing and the parliament thing to get sorted out - but other than that?

Also men and wome ARE different, and in a lot of circumstances equality isn't appropriate.

I just don't see the big problem? I don't feel like men are oppressing me...should I?

[Starla]

Originally Posted by Abi

I think that by going on and on, we're beginning to give men the hard time.

I don't think many feminists give men a hard time. It would be extremely naive to stereotype them like that, when the majority have done little wrong.

Originally Posted by Abi

Women seem to expect men to treat them exactly the way they want - paying for meals, opening doors etc, but then go off their heads when they make jokes about making the tea! However, if urfemale friend asked u to make ur tea - u wouldnt see that as an infringement on ur rights.

Speak for yourself. I open doors for people, +am greatful when others do it for me, regardless of sex. I would only let a male pay for me if I was going to pay for him another time, the exact same way I would with female friends. And I'd be insulted as hell if he offered to do it based on my sex. And as for making tea, I'd be insulted if anyone treated me like a skivy based on my sex. Jokes like these are based on sexual steriotypes, not our bloody reluctance to cook.

Originally Posted by Abi

But don't u think feminism is a bit dead?

Just because we've made progress doesn't mean it's over. That's like saying racism and homophobia are no longer problems. We still get treated differently, it's harder for us to find work, when we do, we get paid much less and there are still so many fields in which we're regarded as inferior.

Originally Posted by Abi

Also men and wome ARE different, and in a lot of circumstances equality isn't appropriate.

Well done. You've noticed the physical differences. But why should these rule what people think of us?

Originally Posted by Abi

I just don't see the big problem? I don't feel like men are oppressing me...should I?

You should believe what you want. I just find it sad when a girl in this day +age has the attitude of a content 50s house wife.

[MrElectricOcean]

Originally Posted by punkiconess

You shouldnt be. You should be banned from playing any sport for 50 years and see how you like it. Turning the tables and all that.

Its women time now.

There is a reason for all male sports teams and all female sports teams and that is the simple fact that the majority of men are physically stronger so competition wouldn't be fair.

[: : Scott : :]

Originally Posted by starla

I would only let a male pay for me if I was going to pay for him another time, the exact same way I would with female friends. And I'd be insulted as hell if he offered to do it based on my sex.

why?

Originally Posted by starla

Well done. You've noticed the physical differences. But why should these rule what people think of us?.

no-one said that your gender should rule what people think of you. absolute equality isn't always possible.

Originally Posted by starla

You should believe what you want. I just find it sad when a girl in this day +age has the attitude of a content 50s house wife.

maybe no males discriminate against her, so she is content? if it aint broke...

[FashionWhore]

most of the comments on this subject are basically prowomen antimen propaganda.... some of u seem to be part of this basically on the grounds that u hav issues with men and not alot of u seem to actually understand the basic point....

the point seems to be that some women are being treated unfairly. so are men - maybe for different reasons (skin colour, mental health etc)

the problem for womens rights is dying naturally as more and more people switch off to the differences - yet bringing it back up like this only isolates u from ur objective. if the progression was left alone (minus some echoes from the past) it is likey that the problem will just melt away - i hope no finds this naive... because as a young person myself in my daily life I c NO discrimination (that may be because i am lucky) but i beleive that it is actually a sign of things to come. the only slight discrimination that i hav seen that i can remember was against men.

im sorry if this offends somepeople but after listening to ur opinions plus arguments (Apart from marie) i can only c petty childish personal views that shouldnt ber used in such an arguement.

[FashionWhore]

Originally Posted by starla

And I'd be insulted as hell if he offered to do it based on my sex.

thats so stupid - u would be offended if someone did a nice thing for u? t

Originally Posted by starla

We still get treated differently, it's harder for us to find work, when we do, we get paid much less and there are still so many fields in which we're regarded as inferior.

hahaha bull shit - as a male tryin to find a job i hav found that on the whole more women get hired then me. most of my female friends hav jobs - that pay better then mine. and i work with mainly females under a female manager..... im probably the losest payed at my work

Originally Posted by starla

Well done. You've noticed the physical differences. But why should these rule what people think of us?

if u were sittin beside a man was obviously stronger then u and someone asked him to pick up an object u obviously counldnt lift rather then asking u....would u be offended?

Originally Posted by starla

You should believe what you want. I just find it sad when a girl in this day +age has the attitude of a content 50s house wife.

personally knowing abi for almost 17 years i can tell u for one thing that she diffenently does not act like a "content 50s housewife" i find ur arguementative skills immature and stupid - rather then making a fair point u seem to be personally attacking.....

[MrElectricOcean]

Originally Posted by fokinrokin

most of the comments on this subject are basically prowomen antimen propaganda.... some of u seem to be part of this basically on the grounds that u hav issues with men and not alot of u seem to actually understand the basic point....

the point seems to be that some women are being treated unfairly. so are men - maybe for different reasons (skin colour, mental health etc)

the problem for womens rights is dying naturally as more and more people switch off to the differences - yet bringing it back up like this only isolates u from ur objective. if the progression was left alone (minus some echoes from the past) it is likey that the problem will just melt away - i hope no finds this naive... because as a young person myself in my daily life I c NO discrimination (that may be because i am lucky) but i beleive that it is actually a sign of things to come. the only slight discrimination that i hav seen that i can remember was against men.

im sorry if this offends somepeople but after listening to ur opinions plus arguments (Apart from marie) i can only c petty childish personal views that shouldnt ber used in such an arguement.

Thats a bit seriou for you!

[Ally G]

Originally Posted by fokinrokin

thats so stupid - u would be offended if someone did a nice thing for u?

*Based on her sex yes, cause he wouldn't offer to do it for a guy*



hahaha bull shit - as a male tryin to find a job i hav found that on the whole more women get hired then me. most of my female friends hav jobs - that pay better then mine. and i work with mainly females under a female manager..... im probably the losest payed at my work

*yes, women get hired more easily for low paid menial jobs. Try getting a job once you've finished school and are looking for a career, you'll see what this means. its another example of your experience not being universal.*

if u were sittin beside a man was obviously stronger then u and someone asked him to pick up an object u obviously counldnt lift rather then asking u....would u be offended?

* 1st point- men aren't alwawsy pyhsically stronger than women. 2nd point- this shouldn't determine what people think of her*

personally knowing abi for almost 17 years i can tell u for one thing that she diffenently does not act like a "content 50s housewife" i find ur arguementative skills immature and stupid - rather then making a fair point u seem to be personally attacking.....

*she's attacking abi's personal views yeah. but being apathetic towards oppression os sustaining oppression. Even if abi isn't the subject of sexism (and once she moves out of her pparents house and goes to uni or whatever we'll see if she still thinks thihngs are fine on that score) HER EXPERINCE DOESN'T COUNT FOR EVERYONE. Feminism still has a purpose while we live in a male dominated society where domestic abuse is tolerated, rape is seen as a common risk of walking the streets at night, and women are oppresed in the workplace.

Frock on is obviously a positive thing- the Hxc/punk/ metal scene IS sexist, in the extreme- most crowds are mainly male (one gig in the beat bar doesn't change this) almost all bands are entirely male, most girls feel like they have to conform to fucking stupis scene stereotypes to fit in....its bullshit. get a clue rich, before you start throwing around words like stupid and bullshit.
/rant

[FashionWhore]

Originally Posted by Ally G

Frock on is obviously a positive thing- the Hxc/punk/ metal scene IS sexist, in the extreme- most crowds are mainly male (one gig in the beat bar doesn't change this) almost all bands are entirely male, most girls feel like they have to conform to fucking stupis scene stereotypes to fit in....its bullshit. get a clue rich, before you start throwing around words like stupid and bullshit.
/rant

how the fuck is that sexist?

cus most of the crowd are male? thats a matter of choice. ther is no sign on the door saying "No penis No entry" no band goes out of ther way to find all male members its just the case that more men then women want to pay that kind of music.

i doubt most girls feel they have to conform to any stereotypes thats like sayin most scottish people wear kilts and drink whiskey to conform. i agree with u on the front however that the stereotypes of women are bullshit

i think that instead of u coming on and undermining me, telling me wot i believe is bullshit u should "get a clue"

[xdavidx]

I don't mean to be condescending, but some of you kids need to open your eyes, just because you can't see sexism in your lives, that does not mean it doesn't exist. what goes on in and around the city centre and middle class suburbs of Dundee has no bearing on the massive imbalances there are in the world. the world is still massively biased against women.

however, the ways in which these problems are being 'resolved' are simply leading to more, institutionalised, massive imbalances. 'empowering' an 'opressed' group (women/africans/whatever), in my mind certainly, is not going to lead to equality, but to said group adopting a superior attitude. and instead of the 'opressed' group being conditioned to accept 'equality', they're being de-programmed by politically correct propaganda, while existing in a world where it's proper for them to be belittled and mocked, in an attempt to make up for years of imbalance.

every day television, newspapers, even peoples attitudes make me feel guilty for being a white male. and why? I go out of my way to treat all people equally. yet now it's a faux pas to mention women or black people in a derogatory fashion, however light or jokingly, and yet it's the 'done thing' to stereotype and insult the white male.

what I'm getting at is that, in my eyes, 'empowerment' is not a good idea. I agree that Frock On is a fantastic idea and I would happily support it, the music scene does promote a jock mentality, and while there's nothing wrong with that, it would be better if it didn't exclude women, but the whole idea of Frock On seems to be interpreted wrongly. look, purely for example, at what Becca said. is *that* what Frock On is all about? pushing men out of the musical scene? no. but unless there's a proper, genuine feeling of EQUALITY in the world, things like Frock On won't work. nothing will.

I know it's meant to promote equality, but work needs to be done on both sexes, at the same time. thinking of them as seperate groups will not help. I have so much more to say on this but I have to go get my bus now.

[Ally G]

Originally Posted by fokinrokin

how the fuck is that sexist?

cus most of the crowd are male? thats a matter of choice. ther is no sign on the door saying "No penis No entry" no band goes out of ther way to find all male members its just the case that more men then women want to pay that kind of music.

*how do you know that more men than women are intrested in it? cause there are more men at gigs.....hang on isn't that a little circular? And i'm not saying the bands, or the people in the scene are sexist, its the institution, the way it functions, the way it's cool to be mysogynist, macho, a fucking tough guy*



i think that instead of u coming on and undermining me, telling me wot i believe is bullshit u should "get a clue"

*Dude i'm trying to tell you that what you belive is a pile of shite and you only belive it cause of your limited experience. To put it plainly- you dont know what you're talking about- you dont have the information to contribute, so listen to these other people. If your wrong, of course i'm gonna undermine you, dont be so precious about your opinions*

As for dave....man i think you just have the wrong idea of what empowerment actually is- its not about instituting a 'superior attitude'- or at least not normally about it. Its about helping people realise they are being oppresed, and showing them something can be done. How else were you planning to get this equality?


As fr it being the done thing for it to stereotype and insult the white male....i still hear the word 'paki' a lot more than i hear 'honky' or whatever the uk equvilant would be. But your riht in a way, theres a distinction between real, positive feminism and media manipulation and hype, the only purpose of which is to sell more copies of whatever shitty glossy magazine its in.

but this has nothing to do with frock on.
qanna hear a joke? what do you call three guys arguing about feminism? tools

[xdavidx]

maybe I do have the wrong idea about what empowerment is meant to do, but this idea comes from what it actually DOES to people.

at the end of the day equality is like communism, it's a nice idea in principle.