Frock On!

[Becca Bomb]

Originally Posted by X iwilt X

at the end of the day equality is like communism, it's a nice idea in principle.

So what you are trying to say that is, as its a good idea in principle but a bad idea in practice? Can you explain yourself? Surely this would be the ultimate success to achieve complete equality in practice? Its the getting there that is the tricky part.

[Abi]

I definitly don't act or think like a content 50's housewife. I'm just saying, that if a man pays for a meal, or opens a door for me, it doesn't offend me in the slightest - neither would I think anything of cooking him a meal - its a nice thing to do! The feminists I have come across would accept neither, out of sheer principle, and thats a bit ridiculous.

The only point that I was trying to make before, is that feminists seem to be getting the wrong idea, and appear to be trying to make women better - not equal to men.

I agree Frock On is a good idea - I have nothing against it! But, ironically, it seem to me like its actually increasing the gap between women and men. Encouraging women into the music scene is a good idea however.
And to be fair, I have never felt excluded from the music scene myself - if I so desired, I wouldn't think twice about starting a band.

Also isn't Frock On actually discriminating against men by being a group soley for women?

Domestic abuse and the such, is different from inequality - and its been proven that men are just as much victims from it as well.

And physical differences do allow for us to be treated differently. I'm sure if an employer wanted someone to do hard manual labour he would pick a burly man over me. It's a fact of life.

[Becca Bomb]

Originally Posted by X iwilt X

in my experience, empowerment makes stupid people assume they're superior, not equal.

empowerment is just a temporary tool to act as a catalyst to equality, its not to indicate superiority but to realize there is no inferiority.

How can you say its pointless? If all people had thought like you 70 years ago then blacks would still be slaves and women would not have the vote. You are ovbiously content with your position in life but others do have a reason to be motivated for change.

[xdavidx]

Originally Posted by punkiconess

So what you are trying to say that is, as its a good idea in principle but a bad idea in practice? Can you explain yourself? Surely this would be the ultimate success to achieve complete equality in practice? Its the getting there that is the tricky part.

like I said, there's no way to achieve complete equality, there are always going to be exceptions stemming from human nature. in order to acheive something close to equality you'd need to educate every new child the exact same principles, and you'd have to re-educate everyone in the world. and again, human nature, some people, in fact a large majority don't want to be educated. imagine resetting the morales of every culture and religion and social class in the world... I'd love for it to happen, but it never will.

I'm all in favour of Frock On and having more girls in the scene, I offered you help for Feline Frenzy and I'd help with Frock On, but in general, my point is people won't react well to things like this because their moral code is already full of countervalues and wormholes. effectively, people need to be de-programmed before this kind of thing would work.

[xdavidx]

Originally Posted by punkiconess

empowerment is just a temporary tool to act as a catalyst to equality, its not to indicate superiority but to realize there is no inferiority.

How can you say its pointless? If all people had thought like you 70 years ago then blacks would still be slaves and women would not have the vote. You are ovbiously content with your position in life but others do have a reason to be motivated for change.

that is certainly not what i mean at all and I find it insulting that you think that.

as I've said, I'm aware of what empowerment is, but i am also aware that human beings are complex creatures and a lot of people can and will mis-understand what empowerment is all about. a lot of people born into a life of social opression whether due to colour or sex, are going to react to 'empowerment' by assuming superiority, and that's a fact. humans are stupid, irrational, and will fight to obtain superiority. tipping the scales in one direction instead of the other won't offer a long term solution.

[Becca Bomb]

Originally Posted by X iwilt X

like I said, there's no way to achieve complete equality, there are always going to be exceptions stemming from human nature. in order to acheive something close to equality you'd need to educate every new child the exact same principles, and you'd have to re-educate everyone in the world. and again, human nature, some people, in fact a large majority don't want to be educated. imagine resetting the morales of every culture and religion and social class in the world... I'd love for it to happen, but it never will.

I'm all in favour of Frock On and having more girls in the scene, I offered you help for Feline Frenzy and I'd help with Frock On, but in general, my point is people won't react well to things like this because their moral code is already full of countervalues and wormholes. effectively, people need to be de-programmed before this kind of thing would work.

and that is the exact reason for it to be active. You are basically stating that because people and society are conditioned a certain way that it can't be changed? Well, look at history - its changed a huge amount in the last century. Values and attitudes have turned around, although its slow its an effective process to change society around. With positive strategy there is always an effect achieved. It may take the next 100 years but it will be worth it in the end. Evolution isnt only for technology. You may be cynical , and i don't blame you, but the future as I see it (and how it should be) is a lot more balanced than this society. Little changes, however little they may be will all have a place in the big scene of things to come, as long as the intention is good.

[Becca Bomb]

Originally Posted by X iwilt X

that is certainly not what i mean at all and I find it insulting that you think that.

as I've said, I'm aware of what empowerment is, but i am also aware that human beings are complex creatures and a lot of people can and will mis-understand what empowerment is all about. a lot of people born into a life of social opression whether due to colour or sex, are going to react to 'empowerment' by assuming superiority, and that's a fact. humans are stupid, irrational, and will fight to obtain superiority. tipping the scales in one direction instead of the other won't offer a long term solution.

no one is tipping any scales. In fact, the scales lean so towards men that females are just trying to find their weight being registered at all.

[marie]

Darnnit. Okay, this is my last post on this thread.

"Also isn't Frock On actually discriminating against men by being a group soley for women?"

Please check out http://www.frockon.org/draft.html for more information about Frock On and why we make the choices we do.

"Domestic abuse and the such, is different from inequality- and its been proven that men are just as much victims from it as well."

In fact, the 2001/02 British Crime Survey found that there were an estimated 635,000 incidents of domestic violence in England and Wales. 81% of the victims were women and 19% were men. 1 in 4 women experience domestic violence over their lifetimes and between 6-10% of women suffer domestic violence in a given year (Council of Europe, 2002).

--------------------------

Re. post above, empowerment - bad for "stupid people" who start to feel superior. This just isn't true. Individuals need to start feeling like they have the right and the ability to challenge society. This is what empowerment means. It is possible to start feeling good about yourself by other means than starting to feel superior to other groups. I know because its a process I've happily witnessed a lot in my longterm involvement with multiple community and activist groups.

From your other posts I gathered that you acknowledge the idea that we're living in a fuckedup world full of divison and inequalities. You also feel that a state of equality can never be achieved, especially not through a process of individual empowerment of oppressed groups.

Do you think then that we should give up altogether?

Or do you have a better idea for making positive changes?

I'm genuinely interested because new strategies for effecting change are always an exciting propostition.

If you reckon we should give up altogether, well I guess there we differ. I'm completely fucking exhausted at the moment with the amount of energy I've been putting into the world this year in particular. Sometimes it does seem pointless and hopeless. But then I remember the small picture. It doesn't all have to happen at once. It won't. Little victories, small changes have been and are won step by step, by campaiging, by activism, and yes, by making women feel good about themselves.

And finally, you don't have to feel guilty for being a white man. No one chooses what kind of family they'll be born into, what gender or sexuality they'll have. Feeling guilty is almost a good sign cause it shows you're aware of the fact that you've inherited some privileges. That's better than being totally oblivious and not giving a fuck. The next step is to move on from feeling guilty about your status and get fully behind attempts to make things better.

[: : Scott : :]

*** = myReply.

Originally Posted by punkiconess

Scott - you say that true equality will not be possile?! Now that is the biggest valid reason for feminism i've ever heard!

***ie, males and females are different. physically and mentally, they are different. NEITHER is better or worse, just different. when things are different, they can't be equal in all respects.***

Why should be accept how things are today? Its plain to see that even on todays society that in EVERY field its men that are in the driving seat.

***it's not men that are in the driving seat. it's some men, and some women. in an argument such as this, you can't simplify things to that degree and expect your argument to hold.***

If as you say, feminism is dead Abi, then surely we would have a female president by now or at least one in the running? Why is our country ruled by all men if gender is irrelevant (minus the rare few token female mps) Just look at the House of Lords - thats sexism if I ever seen it.

***you are right, of course. but these leaders don't elect themselves, dig?

I don't know anything about the house of lords though, so *i am silent*. ***

/////TBC/////

[: : Scott : :]

Originally Posted by Punkiconess

Its only in the last year or so that hunting in Scotland (although im totally against hunting) has allowed women to participate after years of demonstrations for equality. Doesnt this just prove that even in this day and age women are still being treated as second class citizens?

***i'd say that if they are allowed to, then it proves that they aren't 2nd class citizens. more to the point, if they want to participate then they are cave(WO)man morons anyway.***

And if these females were to sit back and accept all of this (content i'm not) then there would never be feminism in the first place. There has to be the select few that get off their arses and take action for the many.

***i totally agree, and i think that a sexual discrimination is a reality that needs to be dealt with swiflty. i didn't say that sexual discrimination doesn't exist, i just said that true equality (by definition) is impossible.***

Its not even being against men. Men should SUPPORT this. Its to gain equality within the seams of society that is the vision, not to get one up on men or put men down in any way. Its to change old fashioned views that have conditioned us for so long. And it prevailant in so many aspects of life. I KNOW, because as a female, I have experinced it so much.

***i do support it, its a great idea. that's why im coming to glasgow for the frockon gigs, since boys aren't allowed to the workshop apparently (let's not send out a sexist message ).***

so stop geting defensive and just support it.

oh, one more thing...

Originally Posted by punkiconess

its men that are in the driving seat...

don't get me started on women drivers.

that is all.