Laney Amps

[I_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by mrlizard

When you're talking about clipping they do, you can get around 30% more gain out of the pre and power stages of a valve amp before it can be percieved as distortion, it'll add even order harmonics (arguably distortion) but an effect that is pleasing to the ear, wheras with solid state when its clipping its clipping, and its clipping hard! so less volume before it starts sounding shite.

The bass amp comparison is not a good one, i don't know much about bass amps but if i owned an SVT i would try and run it within it's linear operating level, so i wouldn't be hearing that extra percieved volume. A well designed valve amp can sound just as clean as a good solid state one.

Fair enough

Im not arguing that a valve amp cant sound clean, they usually have a much better clean sound that SS amps, with bass amps tho, overdriving an SVT is just mwah

I know the difference between hard and soft clipping, and i recon it must be a guitar amp thing with the 30% extra, either way surely that'd just be transient peaks? i wouldnt think the OTs would be able to take that much extra strain, probably wrong tho.

You could use an amp head, but, you'd still need a cab, and amp heads tend to be more powerful, there will be some about im sure, but i think you'll be hard pushed to find a valve amp head lower than 30 watts

[mrlizard]

Originally Posted by I_got_a_mohawk

Fair enough

Im not arguing that a valve amp cant sound clean, they usually have a much better clean sound that SS amps, with bass amps tho, overdriving an SVT is just mwah

I know the difference between hard and soft clipping, and i recon it must be a guitar amp thing with the 30% extra, either way surely that'd just be transient peaks? i wouldnt think the OTs would be able to take that much extra strain, probably wrong tho.

You could use an amp head, but, you'd still need a cab, and amp heads tend to be more powerful, there will be some about im sure, but i think you'll be hard pushed to find a valve amp head lower than 30 watts

its the same volume, its just distorting differently, the ouput transformer can handle it because its not actually any louder, its just you can get roughly 30% more percieved volume before your ear hears it as distortion. The transients are more rounded than squished flat.

read this:

RELATIONSHIP OF FACTORS AND FINDINGS

The basic cause of the difference in tube and transistor sound is the weighting of harmonic distortion components in the amplifier's overload region. Transistor amplifiers exhibit a strong component of third harmonic distortion when driven into overload. This harmonic produces a "covered" sound, giving a recording a restricted quality. Alternatively a tube amplifier when overloaded generates a whole spectrum of harmonics. Particularly strong are the second, third, fourth, and fifth overtones, which give a full-bodies "brassy" quality to the sound. The further any amplifier is driven into saturation, the greater the amplitude of the higher harmonics like the seventh, eighth, ninth, etc. These add edge to the sound which the ear translates to loudness information. Overloading an operational amplifier produces such steeply rising edge harmonics that they become objectionable within a 5-dB range. Transistors extend this overload range to about 10 dB and tubes widen it to 20 dB or more. Using this basic analysis, the psychoacoustic characteristics stated in the beginning of this paper can be related to the electrical harmonic properties of each type of amplifier.

It was not part of the original intent of this paper to analyze operational amplifiers. However, the tests show that they fall into a distinct class of their own. Basically, operational amplifiers produce strong third, fifth and seventh harmonics when driven only a few dB into overload. The resultant sound is metallic with a very harsh edge which the ear hears as strong distortion. Since this sound is so objectionable, it acts as a clearly audible overload warning signal. Consequently, operational amplifiers are rarely operated in their saturation region. This results in a very cleanly amplified sound with little coloration and true dynamic range within the limitations of the amplifier. True dynamic range is not necessarily the determinant of good sound reproduction, however, since it is much greater than any disc or tape system presently available. Because of their characteristics, operational amplifiers produce only the top end of the dynamic range which contains all the transients but lacks the solid pitch information which the ear hears as music. When records of true dynamic range are played on a limited-range system, they sound very thin. This relates directly to the originally cited listener's comment that transistor records were very clean but sounded sibilant and cymbally.

The transistor characteristics which our subjects noted were the buzzing or white-noise sound and the lack of "punch." The buzz is of course directly related to the edge produced by overloading on transients. The guess that this is white noise is due to the fact that many of the edge harmonics like the seventh and ninth are not musically related to the fundamental. The ear hears these dissonant tones as a kind of noise accompanying every attack. The lack of punch is due to the strong third harmonic which is inaudibly "blanketing" the sound. This is correctable by using a large enough pad to prevent all peaks from reaching the amplifier's saturated region. But from a practical standpoint, there is no way of determining this on most consoles. Adding auxiliary peak indicators on the input preamplifiers could alleviate both these problems, and the sound would be very close to that of the operational amplifier in its linear region.

Vacuum-tube amplifiers differ from transistor and operational amplifiers because they can be operated in the overload region without adding objectionable distortion. The combination of the slow rising edge and the open harmonic structure of the overload characteristics form an almost ideal sound- recording compressor. Within the 15-20 dB "safe" overload range, the electrical output of the tube amplifier increases by only 2-4 dB, acting like a limiter. However, since the edge is increasing within this range, the subjective loudness remains uncompressed to the ear. This effect causes tube-amplified signals to have a high apparent level which is not indicated on a volume indicator (VU meter). Tubes sound louder and have a better signal-to-noise ratio because of this extra subjective head room that transistor amplifiers do not have. Tubes get punch from their naturally brassy overload characteristics. Since the loud signals can be recorded at higher levels, the softer signals are also louder, so they are not lost in tape hiss and they effectively give the tube sound greater clarity. The feeling of more bass response is directly related to the strong second and third harmonic components which reinforce the "natural" bass with "synthetic" bass [5]. In the context of a limited dynamic range system like the phonograph, recordings made with vacuum-tube preamplifiers will have more apparent level and a greater signal to system noise ratio than recordings made with transistors or operational amplifiers.

Audio Engineering Society article, may 1973.

[mrlizard]

Originally Posted by I_got_a_mohawk

Im not arguing that a valve amp cant sound clean, they usually have a much better clean sound that SS amps, with bass amps tho, overdriving an SVT is just mwah

i know

Cheap solid state amps maybe.

[Becca Bomb]

2 pages of posts, but still no one can seem to answer the original question of a specific amp they could recommend

[captain ahab]

Originally Posted by Becca Bomb

2 pages of posts, but still no one can seem to answer the original question of a specific amp they could recommend

First of all, why the fuck are you posting on this thread? Haven't you read my previous posts? haven't you read mohawks posts? Havent you read mrlizards posts? we recommended amps and offered advice that would be suitable for the original posters purposes. These amps were The fender pro junior, and the peavey classic 30. We also offered critical evaluation of the laney vc15. Instead of being a righteous prick why not offer your own advice? You know fuck-all about what we are talking is why. Arsehole.

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

You could use an amp head, but, you'd still need a cab, and amp heads tend to be more powerful, there will be some about im sure, but i think you'll be hard pushed to find a valve amp head lower than 30 watts

There are a few amazing heads you can pick up which are way under 30 watts. The Z-vex Nano Head is 1/2 watt and sounds great. The bad cat Hot cat 15 watt head is sublime (pricey though). Orange are now producing a head which i believe is switchable from 15 to 8 watts, i believe it is called the tiny terror.

Originally Posted by suicidalsid

ok thanks for all the advice. i think what i am now looking for is a low wattage valve amp primarily for home recording. could this be an amp head?! the only low wattage amp i've really seen is the epiphone valve junior which i've heard makes quite a lot of hum. what other amps like this are there?

Check the previous posts man! try the fender pro junior (there is one in rainbow music, go try it!) and the peavey classic 30. If you are looking for a lower powered head, check those mentioned above. By the way,good thread you have produced here bwoy, EVERYONE is learning a little!

[suicidalsid]

Originally Posted by captain ahab

First of all, why the fuck are you posting on this thread? Haven't you read my previous posts? haven't you read mohawks posts? Havent you read mrlizards posts? we recommended amps and offered advice that would be suitable for the original posters purposes. These amps were The fender pro junior, and the peavey classic 30. We also offered critical evaluation of the laney vc15. Instead of being a righteous prick why not offer your own advice? You know fuck-all about what we are talking is why. Arsehole.

Actually it does have everything to do with becca bomb as she is in my band. I established, through mrlizzards advice that I needed a low wattage valve amp. The laney would have been too loud for home recording so I wanted advice on amps of 5 watts, or there-abouts. We were both fustrated because people went off on tangents about the difference between SS and tube amps, ie geek talk.

[ArchFlameTera]

Originally Posted by suicidalsid

Actually it does have everything to do with becca bomb as she is in my band. I established, through mrlizzards advice that I needed a low wattage valve amp. The laney would have been too loud for home recording so I wanted advice on amps of 5 watts, or there-abouts. We were both fustrated because people went off on tangents about the difference between SS and tube amps, ie geek talk.

i think the "geek talk" might do you good. maybe you'll be able to choose a decent amp if you understand what you want..

[tartanriot]

http://www.cornfordamps.com/

The Harlequin and Carrera are both between 5 and 8 watts. i'v only ever used the cornford heads but im guessing the combos will sound equaly fuckin amamzing!

[I_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by mrlizard

its the same volume, its just distorting differently, the ouput transformer can handle it because its not actually any louder, its just you can get roughly 30% more percieved volume before your ear hears it as distortion. The transients are more rounded than squished flat.

read this:
Audio Engineering Society article, may 1973.

Ah right, see, i didnt think you were talking about percieved volume, i thought you were talking actual power (wattage) output, and i was gonna say i know it is a tad on the variable side with different tubes and such, but 30% extra watts seemed like a lot more.

However, from a biological standpoint, distortion doesnt increase the percieved volume as much as alot of people seem to put over, but, i dare say the percieved volume of 30% extra power is only adding 1.5 ish dB roughly.

I know they transients are rounded with valve amps, and flat with SS amps, its called soft and hard clipping, it also leads to the misconception that clipping a solid state amp is the same as pumping DC into the speakers, which it isnt, IIRC its to do with having the speaker close to maximum excursion, but, thats a different story and a tad ranty.

Originally Posted by captain ahab

There are a few amazing heads you can pick up which are way under 30 watts. The Z-vex Nano Head is 1/2 watt and sounds great. The bad cat Hot cat 15 watt head is sublime (pricey though). Orange are now producing a head which i believe is switchable from 15 to 8 watts, i believe it is called the tiny terror.

Thats interesting, i suspected there may be a few, but, as i said they are a tad on the harder to come by way , i didnt know about the orange at all tho, thought they went down to 30 watts, interesting, and all good tho

Originally Posted by tartanriot

http://www.cornfordamps.com/

The Harlequin and Carrera are both between 5 and 8 watts. i'v only ever used the cornford heads but im guessing the combos will sound equaly fuckin amamzing!

Cornford amps are damned nice, but, damned expensive !

[mrlizard]

Originally Posted by suicidalsid

Actually it does have everything to do with becca bomb as she is in my band. I established, through mrlizzards advice that I needed a low wattage valve amp. The laney would have been too loud for home recording so I wanted advice on amps of 5 watts, or there-abouts. We were both fustrated because people went off on tangents about the difference between SS and tube amps, ie geek talk.

I could no more tell you who you should marry or what kind of car you should buy then which guitar amp to get. You can best determine what will suit your requirements for a tool by giving a few of them a shot.

I can however give you technical reasons why you may prefer a particular amplifier, not off topic in the slightest.

You're posting in a musicians forum, some people here may actually be into getting the best from their gear, don't make out like its a star trek convention. For some of us this it's a job not a hobby.

[mrlizard]

Originally Posted by I_got_a_mohawk

it also leads to the misconception that clipping a solid state amp is the same as pumping DC into the speakers, which it isnt, IIRC its to do with having the speaker close to maximum excursion, but, thats a different story and a tad ranty.

i'm intrigued. If its ok with becca.

[Becca Bomb]

Originally Posted by mrlizard

i'm intrigued. If its ok with becca.

fire on

ive decided which amp im buying so star trek away guys