Iraq, Saddam, Arafat, Afghanistan

[AlanG]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Bannana Man:
<strong>Still no suggestions, just more out of context quotes and an ill informed view on what rascism is.
</strong>
which quotes were out of contect? I replied to every line as far as I recall so you could see each sentance from either side there. Erm ho was my view of racism ill informed. Lets see I have never at any point said I hate Americans, only the government fo the country, so since when is hating a government of a country but not hating the people of a country making my statements racist. I was merely pointing out that even a racist statement towards Aemricans would still not apply to about 60% of the people in America no matter who it was directed to as there is no American "race"

<strong>
The fact that you segregate people by what color, culture orlanguage they speak shows a mild underlying view that they are different when in fact all Americans are American why was what Martin Luther King was fighting for.
</strong>
The only segregation I do towards people is "morally good people" and "morally right people" which contain a broad spectrum from all cultures. The whole reason of that paragraph was to point out that you were being a tube by saying I was racist towards Americans. And Martin Luther King was fighting for equal rights for the minority groups of America, the fact he was assassinated for that shows that lots of other people didnt want one American people, if you want to discuss the Civil rights movement of the 60s in America, please start another thread it has no place here.

<strong>
And there is nothing rascist about declaring a fact, that is true some American big boys shipped out weapons. It's when people imply that the American people deserve what they get, that is the biggoted part.
</strong>
Why would that be bigoted, do you know what the word Bigot means? Besides no one has suggested any such thing. What HAS been suggested is that the American Senate caused this mess so has no right to take the moral high ground over having to clean up their own mess. Besides deserving what they get, "Karmas a bitch" is all i have to say.

<strong>
And I don't beleive that anyone giving Saddam nukes caused this situation. It's the lack of communication and unwillingness to compromise which puts us where we are. Remember Russia and the US had weapons for many years and there was never a war.
</strong>
They came on the brink of it though. Besides there was a hotline set up to stop the nukes being used. "There was never a war" erm, do you know how many wars were funded by both sides so that they could attack each others allies by proxy?

<strong>
"and contines to do bad things and has not apologised for the bad things in the past, or offer compensation, or offer help at all solving the problems that happen today because of teh bad things they did in the past, but apart from that.....
"

I think you'll find the UK gives citzens of many a country asylum from the dictators it helped put into power.
</strong>
By putting them in detention centres and giving them vouchers, very dignified. And some recent cases, which Im sure a search on guardian.co.uk or bbc.co.uk would find include

A woman being sent back to Zimbabwe who was a member of the opposition and is guaranteed to be executed on her return.

A family of Afghani asylum seekers sent back to the heart of what is still Taliban country who are also guaranteed execution.

<strong>
We also give out a substantial amount of aid every year which does not reach the people it was intended for due to corrupt leadership in certain countries.
</strong>
who rose to power when we decided to pull out of the countries without slowly desolving the power structure and instilling demcratic elections, thus allowing military dictators rise in the power vacuum that was left, see Zimbabwe and half the other African countries.

<strong>
I agree that you probably would be shot as a spy. But why? propoganda. Facts and information are all great but both sides need to be explained and understood by everyone , otherwise each side will have a negative attitude towards each other and a situation like today will arise, sterotypes arise and soon all the public hear are bad things about who they already think is bad.
</strong>
the public will hear bad one sided things if they only read propoganda from one side. Both those huge pages I posted were from source sin the public view adn from facts in the public view, not hard to find out that sort of info, just mainstream media avoids anything like that..

<strong>
Instead both sides should be made fully aware of all the facts and maybe we'd all realise that its only a minority of people creating all this hate and fear. So please in your next reply please refrain from telling me how bad the US and the UK governments are, I already know. But I also know that various Middle East governments are just as corrupt and selfish. I only want to find the best way to solve the problem, not to point the finger. SO next post give me some logical alternatives or ideas you may have and less of the fact ridden,
</strong>
Ok I apolagise, I will refrain from posting facts, heaven forbid such things should turn up in a discussion about somethign taht could lead to loss of many lifes. Instead Ill continue in your style as I have been doing in this post. You know, paragraphs of emotional outpouring and no substantial facts of any times, thats a great technique

<strong>
one sided shite which makes Saddam look like an innocent bystander in all of this.
</strong>
exactly what has made Saddam look like an innocent bystander, *starts bashing down strawman*
lets see, an example of what Ive posted
"American government supported countries selling bio weapons to Saddam even though they knew he had used bio weapons in the past and would not refrain from using them again"
exactly which part of Saddam used bio weapons in the past makes him out to be innocent you stupid bastard

<strong>
this is a discussion forum not a guide to Iraq's political history.
</strong>
this is a thread about Iraq, see the title
read. comprehend. post

<strong>
If we all sat down I'm sure we could come up with a plan of action that could see the demise of Saddam but in a way that would allow the Iraqi people to live the way they want to which is what the real goal should be.</strong>
Ive already stated one, support the opposition party in their rise to power, which does a lot more than you, Joe Bloggs from Ohio and Achmed Mohammed from beirut sitting chatting over tea and biscuits as per your suggestion would do.
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[njw]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Alan G:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Bannana Man:
<strong>Still no suggestions, just more out of context quotes and an ill informed view on what rascism is.
</strong>

which quotes were out of contect? I replied to every line as far as I recall so you could see each sentance from either side there. Erm ho was my view of racism ill informed. Lets see I have never at any point said I hate Americans, only the government fo the country, so since when is hating a government of a country but not hating the people of a country making my statements racist. I was merely pointing out that even a racist statement towards Aemricans would still not apply to about 60% of the people in America no matter who it was directed to as there is no American "race"

++Many of your quotes were out of context and if you really hate the goverment of a country, you should seek some professional help...++

<strong>
The fact that you segregate people by what color, culture orlanguage they speak shows a mild underlying view that they are different when in fact all Americans are American why was what Martin Luther King was fighting for.
</strong>
The only segregation I do towards people is "morally good people" and "morally right people" which contain a broad spectrum from all cultures. The whole reason of that paragraph was to point out that you were being a tube by saying I was racist towards Americans. And Martin Luther King was fighting for equal rights for the minority groups of America, the fact he was assassinated for that shows that lots of other people didnt want one American people, if you want to discuss the Civil rights movement of the 60s in America, please start another thread it has no place here.

++You'll find that Martin Luther King was fighting for the equality of all black people, so they too could be seen as ordinairy AMERICANS, instead of 'blacks'... therefore he WAS fighting for them to be 'americans'... so you say he was assasinated, which shows the people didnt want 'one American people'... ok so then why does that matter, i thought you said this was only about the government?++
<strong>
And there is nothing rascist about declaring a fact, that is true some American big boys shipped out weapons. It's when people imply that the American people deserve what they get, that is the biggoted part.
</strong>
Why would that be bigoted, do you know what the word Bigot means? Besides no one has suggested any such thing. What HAS been suggested is that the American Senate caused this mess so has no right to take the moral high ground over having to clean up their own mess. Besides deserving what they get, "Karmas a bitch" is all i have to say.

++Im sure he knows fine well what bigot means, and "karmas a bitch"?... what are you a fucking hippy?++

<strong>
And I don't beleive that anyone giving Saddam nukes caused this situation. It's the lack of communication and unwillingness to compromise which puts us where we are. Remember Russia and the US had weapons for many years and there was never a war.

</strong>
They came on the brink of it though. Besides there was a hotline set up to stop the nukes being used. "There was never a war" erm, do you know how many wars were funded by both sides so that they could attack each others allies by proxy?

++No, do you?...++

<strong>
"and contines to do bad things and has not apologised for the bad things in the past, or offer compensation, or offer help at all solving the problems that happen today because of teh bad things they did in the past, but apart from that.....
"

I think you'll find the UK gives citzens of many a country asylum from the dictators it helped put into power.
</strong>
By putting them in detention centres and giving them vouchers, very dignified. And some recent cases, which Im sure a search on guardian.co.uk or bbc.co.uk would find include

A woman being sent back to Zimbabwe who was a member of the opposition and is guaranteed to be executed on her return.

A family of Afghani asylum seekers sent back to the heart of what is still Taliban country who are also guaranteed execution.

++But a large amount are taken in, and if you dont put them in detention centres, what are you going to do with them, let them sleep on the street? give them private housing for free? im afraid that just wouldnt be fair++

<strong>
We also give out a substantial amount of aid every year which does not reach the people it was intended for due to corrupt leadership in certain countries.
</strong>
who rose to power when we decided to pull out of the countries without slowly desolving the power structure and instilling demcratic elections, thus allowing military dictators rise in the power vacuum that was left, see Zimbabwe and half the other African countries.

++Youre use of over flowery and unnecessarily complex language pisses me off. You suggest they shouldnt have 'pulled out', because it allowed the rise of many militant dictators? if they hadnt 'pulled out' you would be on this board right now moaning and campaigning for those countries freedom because the western superpowers were invading their space++

<strong>
I agree that you probably would be shot as a spy. But why? propoganda. Facts and information are all great but both sides need to be explained and understood by everyone , otherwise each side will have a negative attitude towards each other and a situation like today will arise, sterotypes arise and soon all the public hear are bad things about who they already think is bad.
</strong>
the public will hear bad one sided things if they only read propoganda from one side. Both those huge pages I posted were from source sin the public view adn from facts in the public view, not hard to find out that sort of info, just mainstream media avoids anything like that..

++If you had access to that information, it has been put there by someone, and is therefore biased, so dont make it out that youre arguement is complete++

<strong>
Instead both sides should be made fully aware of all the facts and maybe we'd all realise that its only a minority of people creating all this hate and fear. So please in your next reply please refrain from telling me how bad the US and the UK governments are, I already know. But I also know that various Middle East governments are just as corrupt and selfish. I only want to find the best way to solve the problem, not to point the finger. SO next post give me some logical alternatives or ideas you may have and less of the fact ridden,
</strong>
Ok I apolagise, I will refrain from posting facts, heaven forbid such things should turn up in a discussion about somethign taht could lead to loss of many lifes. Instead Ill continue in your style as I have been doing in this post. You know, paragraphs of emotional outpouring and no substantial facts of any times, thats a great technique

++Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit++
<strong>
one sided shite which makes Saddam look like an innocent bystander in all of this.
</strong>
exactly what has made Saddam look like an innocent bystander, *starts bashing down strawman*
lets see, an example of what Ive posted
"American government supported countries selling bio weapons to Saddam even though they knew he had used bio weapons in the past and would not refrain from using them again"
exactly which part of Saddam used bio weapons in the past makes him out to be innocent you stupid bastard

++I see youre starting to lose your temper... not a good sign of confidence in your own arguements. Saddam IS made out to be an innocent bystander by every single person i have spoken to on this matter, dont deny it. After all, if it wasnt for the US, he wouldnt even be alive would he... Saddam Hussein is infact the love child of the american predidents of the past.++

<strong>
this is a discussion forum not a guide to Iraq's political history.
</strong>
this is a thread about Iraq, see the title
read. comprehend. post

++good one++
<strong>
If we all sat down I'm sure we could come up with a plan of action that could see the demise of Saddam but in a way that would allow the Iraqi people to live the way they want to which is what the real goal should be.
</strong>
Ive already stated one, support the opposition party in their rise to power, which does a lot more than you, Joe Bloggs from Ohio and Achmed Mohammed from beirut sitting chatting over tea and biscuits as per your suggestion would do.

++the opposition party will never rise to power unless Saddam Hussein is eliminated++
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<small>[ 15 September 2002, 11:10 PM: edited by: Nico ]</small>

[Red_Baron]

3 words Alan :read. comprehend. post

A classic case of overenveloping yourself in facts and statistics without really reading them.

1: You mentioned that these vast posts came from material which is publicaly available. Not if you don't hav ethe Interet and how many people in Iraq have the net????

Secondly your wonderful solution which you base on all this fact you've been reading. SO you saying we should get rid off Saddam and help/support another leader into power. Now wait just a bloodt minute the general theme throughout all your posts is that America and the UK suported Saddam, in FACT they did, look I have proof read the thread you said it yourself. So we should have the right to decide who the next leader is?? er.... I though you didn't want this would that not be America controling governments to aid their own adgenda. Yes My idea may seem stupid but at least it's new. Your one's already been done before and criticised by your self. o much for facts if you end up getting lost 'cause you copy and past from some other forum which leads to a massiv contradiction. And what's wrong with emotional outpourings? Sorry for caring.

Another word "Like" used in the English written language to signify a simile. This language tool is used to indicate an apparent likeness which is not totally apparent at first or used as an abstract description to provide the reader with some image of the subject adjective or noun. Saddam is "Like" and innocent bystander. There is another example of you not being able to intrepret.

Hopefully the UN will be allowe din and the proof will be found so Saddam can be ousted with minimal fuss. Then I think both the west and the middle east should be encouraged to learn about each others culture and maybe people can stop hating each other. Otherwise we'll end up getting fools like yourself constantly looking to the past , always looking to lay blame on someone for something. We don't live in a black and white world, things are complecated and it shows in your post one minute you're telling me mass media doesn't cover most subjects then you're telling me to go to bbc.co.uk to find proof of one of your statements. Which fact should I beleive?

While you're sitting looking to find more useless information about what percentage of people each sweetcorn, I've sent a letter to my MP asking him to approach the PM, when parliment reopens, and ask him to start a campaign to educate the western society on Iraq and the middle east in general and maybe even get some other countries involved. Yeah it sounds stupid but its betyter than negative finger pointing which may have ery sound basis but only seeks to instil more defensive attitudes in the people who the remarks are aimed at. Read, Learn, Teach!

[AlanG]

BT crashed and I lost my reply, so will probly forget some of what it was, I hate second attempts at posts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nico:
<strong>
++Many of your quotes were out of context and if you really hate the goverment of a country, you should seek some professional help...++
</strong>
as i included the entire post but split up any lost context could be easily seen by looking at the previous and subsequent quotes. the other alternatives were to have each piece of text three times to surround other quotes, or to reply to one comment with several different points

<strong>
++You'll find that Martin Luther King was fighting for the equality of all black people, so they too could be seen as ordinairy AMERICANS, instead of 'blacks'... therefore he WAS fighting for them to be 'americans'... so you say he was assasinated, which shows the people didnt want 'one American people'... ok so then why does that matter, i thought you said this was only about the government?++
<strong>
which was exactly my point, what does Martin Luther King have to do with a discussion about Iraq. As I said I am all for a seperate discussion about the American civil rights movement, but it has no place here. I only even gave it a reply because it was part of the rant about me being racist and I am still waiting on evidence of what the "American race" is that its possible to be racist towards. The fact that its posisble to dislike a country and like a countries citizens seems to escape Mike though.

</strong>
++Im sure he knows fine well what bigot means, and "karmas a bitch"?... what are you a fucking hippy?++
</strong>
If he knew what it menat then it was completely misused. And no Im not a hippy, although if I was it would have 0 relevance to this discussion. What I meant by Karma is that if America consistantly behaves negatively towards another state then it can only excpect these states to return the negativity towards them.

<strong>
They came on the brink of it though. Besides there was a hotline set up to stop the nukes being used. "There was never a war" erm, do you know how many wars were funded by both sides so that they could attack each others allies by proxy?

++No, do you?...++
</strong>
had a fuller list before, but Afghanistan (where America funded the mujahadeen, what would split to become Alqueda, Taliban and Northern Alliance etc, in their war against the USSR), Nortg/South Korea, what wasnt a war but the Cuban missile crisis which both sides used for peacocking and playing chicken.

<strong>
Asylum seekers
++But a large amount are taken in, and if you dont put them in detention centres, what are you going to do with them, let them sleep on the street? give them private housing for free? im afraid that just wouldnt be fair++
</strong>
There is a vast amount of surplus housing in the UK, in Dundee alone several tower blocks have been demolished in the past 5-6 years. A house with 1 family in paying £0 rent is better than 0 families in paying £0 rent. How is it less fair than giving a 16 year old couple with a kid a house and benefits? The UKs economy has been boosted by immigration (think after WW2 for an example when a huge amount of men came here to replace the men lost in the war to work). The USA was BUILT on immigration.

<strong>
++Youre use of over flowery and unnecessarily complex language pisses me off. You suggest they shouldnt have 'pulled out', because it allowed the rise of many militant dictators? if they hadnt 'pulled out' you would be on this board right now moaning and campaigning for those countries freedom because the western superpowers were invading their space++
</strong>
If they had not pulled out then i would be here whinging cos it would mean that they would still be in power in these other countries. As I said before, they should have set up semi democratic governments and gradually dissolved power to it before they could eventually pull out and leave a democratic government in charge which was voted in by the people of the country. After that whatever happens is internal polictics.

<strong>
++If you had access to that information, it has been put there by someone, and is therefore biased, so dont make it out that youre arguement is complete++
Cant remember exactly what I put here before it was lost. What I meant was if you could see a mainstream report of an issue then a non mainstream one, by taking all the facts that are the same in both reports you remove the bias and are then free to make your own opinion on the issue.

[qb]
++Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit++
</strong>
Yeah but its also the funniest and most effective

<strong>
++I see youre starting to lose your temper... not a good sign of confidence in your own arguements. Saddam IS made out to be an innocent bystander by every single person i have spoken to on this matter, dont deny it. After all, if it wasnt for the US, he wouldnt even be alive would he... Saddam Hussein is infact the love child of the american predidents of the past.++
</strong>
I was losing my temper because I'd had a shit day at work and was then accused of racism, an issue I have very strong views about. Who exactly has been making Saddam out to be an innocent bystander?
"America sold Saddam bio weapons knowing full well he would use them" does not, it leaves in the fact hes an evil bastard
"America sold Saddam bio weapons and without his knowledge his scientists developed bio weps and wanted to use them while he sat in his garden and played with orphaned children" would be making him out to be innocent.

<strong>
this is a discussion forum not a guide to Iraq's political history.

this is a thread about Iraq, see the title
read. comprehend. post

++good one++
</strong>
I was completely baffled by the original sentence, couldnt resist

<strong>
++the opposition party will never rise to power unless Saddam Hussein is eliminated++
</strong>
During teh Gulf war the opposition forces wanted to push for power but the UK/US did nothing to aid them, even though theys atted an aim was to remove Saddam from power. After the Gulf war many of the high ranking members fled to teh UK and Germany while many who stayed were arrested. Which makes you wonder whether the allies wanted Saddam removed from power or not.

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[AlanG]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Bannana Man:
<strong>
3 words Alan :read. comprehend. post
</strong>
I do, I do, I do, you on the other hand ignore half what's written then go off on tirades and build strawmen.
<strong>
A classic case of overenveloping yourself in facts and statistics without really reading them.
</strong>
unlike your method of not only completely ignoring facts but actively moaning about them being used in a discussion

<strong>
1: You mentioned that these vast posts came from material which is publicaly available. Not if you don't hav ethe Interet and how many people in Iraq have the net????
</strong>
Ever seen the stands of various political parties in the city centre? Ever seen a magazine called Private Eye, thats two non internet sources that are easily accessable in the UK. Im sure people in iraq dont need the internet to know that there are bombers flying daily missions into their country, some houses there have windows, not to mention theres an outside where you can easily view the sky, so thats irrelivent

<strong>
Secondly your wonderful solution which you base on all this fact you've been reading. SO you saying we should get rid off Saddam and help/support another leader into power. Now wait just a bloodt minute the general theme throughout all your posts is that America and the UK suported Saddam, in FACT they did, look I have proof read the thread you said it yourself. So we should have the right to decide who the next leader is?? er.... I though you didn't want this would that not be America controling governments to aid their own adgenda.
</strong>
yes but it would also be making up for the wrongs that have happenned in the past. Saddam doesnt hold elections, so by trying to support other parties (I never specified one specific party) to get to a state where they can hold electiosn by whatrvere means might cause another asshole to come to power, but at least it would be an asshole to be elected and not just imposed.

<strong>
Yes My idea may seem stupid but at least it's new.
</strong>
Yeah, cos being new is an admirable quality in an idea, especially one that you yourself admit seems stupid, but hey as long as its a NEW stupid idea its gonna be good

<strong>
Your one's already been done before and criticised by your self.
</strong>
What I critisised was the US imposing a dictator on a country and what I am proposing now is supporting the opposition parties to try adn raise into power. Which as Ive already said is not a completely morally correct action, but make sup somewhat for qhats happenned before and is a lot more morally sound that war.

<strong>
o much for facts if you end up getting lost 'cause you copy and past from some other forum which leads to a massiv contradiction. And what's wrong with emotional outpourings? Sorry for caring.
</strong>
contradiction, where? I copied and pasted two peoples large semi essays on the situation, and stated that neither were my words. What both these did have is facts and offical references to the facts.

Whats wrong with emotional outpouring is that it is useless comared to an argument whos substance is knowledge and fact.

<strong>
Another word "Like" used in the English written language to signify a simile. This language tool is used to indicate an apparent likeness which is not totally apparent at first or used as an abstract description to provide the reader with some image of the subject adjective or noun. Saddam is "Like" and innocent bystander. There is another example of you not being able to intrepret.
</strong>
so lets examine the similie that Saddam is like an innocent bystander. What is an innocent bystander? Its someone who is not involved in whatever actions that are carried out, lets see where it has ever been stated Saddam was not involved in any of teh actions carried out. As I said in my reply above, I have stated several times that "the US government has sold bio weps to Saddam knowing that he would not hesitate to use them" Please show how this sentance or any other shows Saddam to be
" "Like" and[sic] innocent bystander."
go on pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease

<strong>
Hopefully the UN will be allowe din and the proof will be found so Saddam can be ousted with minimal fuss.
</strong>
Havent you heard Dubya, the UN isnt needed, hes gonna go in on his own if needed.

<strong>
Then I think both the west and the middle east should be encouraged to learn about each others culture and maybe people can stop hating each other.
</strong>
What we need to happen is The USA to stop supporting Israel and funding their military, guess what, without Israel there, there woudl be peace. Shucks.

<strong>
Otherwise we'll end up getting fools like yourself constantly looking to the past , always looking to lay blame on someone for something.
</strong>
Instead of looking to the future with daisies in our hair and singing songs round the campfire about how we are all one people. I wnat that too, but guess what, it aint gonna happen, so take your head out of your ass and realise what needs to happen for that Utopia to come about.

<strong>
We don't live in a black and white world, things are complecated and it shows in your post one minute you're telling me mass media doesn't cover most subjects then you're telling me to go to bbc.co.uk to find proof of one of your statements. Which fact should I beleive?
</strong>
you should believe that if you search non mainstream sources youll find lots of info on various subjects. If you sreach BBC you may find 1 out of the 1000s that has info. i gave you those sources because the BBC website (unlike its TV news) seems to report on a huge amount of issues, and an archive. The guardian, although shit also has some info and also a huge archive. Google, is not a mainstream source, it collects infor from the entire web. If you really want some non mainstream sources, and also where I got these two posts try:
<a href="http://www.infidels.org" target="_blank">www.infidels.org</a>
<a href="http://www.somethingawful.com" target="_blank">www.somethingawful.com</a> (the forum costs 10dollars for access, and is mainly right wing middle americans but it gives you an insight to that section of americas views
newsgroups
alt.politics.socialism.*
alt.atheism.*
alt.fan.noam-chomsky (who i dislike)
uk.philosophy.*

there are hundreds more.

<strong>
While you're sitting looking to find more useless information about what percentage of people each sweetcorn,
</strong>
hmm no mention of sweetcorn at all in here, lets see, we have a debate about the situation in Iraq and lots of info about what has happenned and continues to happen in Iraq.

<strong>
I've sent a letter to my MP asking him to approach the PM,
</strong>
whos your MP? cos if its one of the Dundee ones theres no point. But then if I got you the figures for what theyve actually done in the parliament it would just be a bunch of useless statistics about eating sweetcorn

<strong>
when parliment reopens, and ask him to start a campaign to educate the western society on Iraq and the middle east in general and maybe even get some other countries involved. Yeah it sounds stupid but its betyter than negative finger pointing which may have ery sound basis but only seeks to instil more defensive attitudes in the people who the remarks are aimed at. Read, Learn, Teach!</strong>
lets see
read - I read a bunch of statistics
learn - i learned about the situation in Iraq by reading varied sources
teach - I posted on here some evidence of this research and was told that I shouldnt post useless facts, maybe you shoudl explain your new philosophy to that pillock.
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<small>[ 16 September 2002, 06:36 PM: edited by: Alan G ]</small>

[Red_Baron]

"Im sure people in iraq dont need the internet to know that there are bombers flying daily missions into their country, some houses there have windows, not to mention theres an outside where you can easily view the sky, so thats irrelivent "

See they think we're all bastards why not teach them something else. We're not all bastards that want bombs to be dropped every 5 mins, we have access to information some people don't. I'll say it again, ignorance breeds fear which breeds intollorance.

"yes but it would also be making up for the wrongs that have happenned in the past."

Hang on a moment I mad ethis point (kinda ) a few posts back saying that we should try to make up for what happened in the past as it wasn't us that sold bombs.

"Yeah, cos being new is an admirable quality in an idea, especially one that you yourself admit seems stupid, but hey as long as its a NEW stupid idea its gonna be good"

Not all new ideas are good (the master race for one) but when all else has failed we've got to attempt to evolve.

"What I critisised was the US imposing a dictator on a country and what I am proposing now is supporting the opposition parties to try adn raise into power. Which as Ive already said is not a completely morally correct action, but make sup somewhat for qhats happenned before and is a lot more morally sound that war."

Yes I'll admit that idea would be better than war, but now you're living in dream land. the Iraqi people are terrified to speak out against the government, you think they'll vote against them?

As for the word 'like' it doesn't fit to that phrase but in the context of the whole thread it does. "Iraq has been fucked by the US for 40years including full history and references" don't you mean the Iraqi people? that phrase makes it seem like Saddam has been hard done by.

"Havent you heard Dubya, the UN isnt needed, hes gonna go in on his own if needed."

Surely you don't beleive that? this is the man that one minute decided to have weapons inspectors then decided to kick them out (along with aid agencies)

"What we need to happen is The USA to stop supporting Israel and funding their military, guess what, without Israel there, there woudl be peace. Shucks."

Finally some common ground, but that is the subject of more debate.

"Instead of looking to the future with daisies in our hair and singing songs round the campfire about how we are all one people. I wnat that too, but guess what, it aint gonna happen, so take your head out of your ass and realise what needs to happen for that Utopia to come about."

No but if we took your defeatist attitue every time we'd never have got out o the caves and women wouldn't have rights, there would still be a slavery trade in the UK. Come on it's you who needs to wake up, why do you think so many Americans are against military action? after 9/11 they went out and educated themselves!

"you should believe that if you search non mainstream sources youll find lots of info on various subjects. If you sreach BBC you may find 1 out of the 1000s that has info. i gave you those sources because the BBC website (unlike its TV news) seems to report on a huge amount of issues, and an archive. The guardian, although shit also has some info and also a huge archive. Google, is not a mainstream source, it collects infor from the entire web. If you really want some non mainstream sources, and also where I got these two posts try:"

I was just being a smart arese for that comment, I realise you were generalising, couldn't resist it though.

"hmm no mention of sweetcorn at all in here, lets see, we have a debate about the situation in Iraq and lots of info about what has happenned and continues to happen in Iraq."

Sarcasm.

"whos your MP? cos if its one of the Dundee ones theres no point. But then if I got you the figures for what theyve actually done in the parliament it would just be a bunch of useless statistics about eating sweetcorn"

Ok you don't like the government, neither do I but I am not a defeatest either.

"read - I read a bunch of statistics
learn - i learned about the situation in Iraq by reading varied sources
teach - I posted on here some evidence of this research and was told that I shouldnt post useless facts, maybe you shoudl explain your new philosophy to that pillock."

You're almost there, it's just the facts were very one sided and you have a very negative , demeaning attitue towards it all. And it's not new, it's Ghandi's .

P.S. The American race, like the UK one is a convergance of many different cultures. To be a racist is not to hate a country or it's people but to have a bias against it. And to hate a country is to hate its people, it's a very strong remark which could hurt many people. I guess though you mean you hate the way it is run buy idiots, that is not racist it's free speach <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> can we talk about nuclear cargo now?

[AlanG]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Bannana Man:
<strong>See they think we're all bastards why not teach them something else. We're not all bastards that want bombs to be dropped every 5 mins, we have access to information some people don't. I'll say it again, ignorance breeds fear which breeds intollorance.
</strong>
but the reason a lot of people in Iraq despise the West is because Saddam tells him about us constantly bombing the country, they know this to be true, so what reason do they have for not believing Saddam?

<strong>
"yes but it would also be making up for the wrongs that have happenned in the past."

Hang on a moment I mad ethis point (kinda ) a few posts back saying that we should try to make up for what happened in the past as it wasn't us that sold bombs.
</strong>
but we sold all the ingredients for making the bombs, what do you mean?

<strong>
Yes I'll admit that idea would be better than war, but now you're living in dream land. the Iraqi people are terrified to speak out against the government, you think they'll vote against them?
</strong>
I meant some way to support the opposition in a rise to power, wether thats to offer protection (like bodyguards for them) to approach Saddam and demand elections, or try adn have some debate live on tv where he can be made out to be a bastard or whatever. Whatever it takes to get the opposition to power without just throwing in another puppet, and working with whatever new regime to ensure its a democratic system, liek I say, until the Israel situation is solved and the region can start to become stabilised, theres no hope for anything working for the good.

<strong>
Surely you don't beleive that? this is the man that one minute decided to have weapons inspectors then decided to kick them out (along with aid agencies)
</strong>
the reason they were kicked out is they were allegedly spying. They werent just sticking to the designated areas. there was some reports on it, a bit of digging might make them surface.

<strong>
"What we need to happen is The USA to stop supporting Israel and funding their military, guess what, without Israel there, there woudl be peace. Shucks."

Finally some common ground, but that is the subject of more debate.
</strong>
and something that hasnt been mentioned much in this threa dalso about arafat the president 9honest hes not a terrorist and never was)

<strong>
No but if we took your defeatist attitue every time we'd never have got out o the caves and women wouldn't have rights, there would still be a slavery trade in the UK. Come on it's you who needs to wake up, why do you think so many Americans are against military action? after 9/11 they went out and educated themselves!
</strong>
I would say its more to do with the minority of americans actually voting for the president so not supporting his actions, but thats getting back to the US's lack of democracy. Im not a defeatest, im a realist though. I also dont listen to the bile in the media so because I am against most of the propoganda the politicians spout, doesnt mean im defeatest.

<strong>
Ok you don't like the government, neither do I but I am not a defeatest either.
</strong>
The current government is no different to the last government, the last two parties in power have both been stained by sleaze and lies. To add to that our MPs in Dundee have done the square of fuck all for this city or the people of the city. Our council is a joke. Im not a defeatest though, I actively support some political parties in the area. Where do you get the idea I am a defeatest. If I was one, I would ignore politics, never vote, curl in a ball and get on with my life.

<strong>
You're almost there, it's just the facts were very one sided and you have a very negative , demeaning attitue towards it all. And it's not new, it's Ghandi's .
</strong>
They are one sided because the actiosn are one sided. there was a link to a mission report from a US ship, that would obviously be one sided from the US side. As I said, look at sources from both sides adn examine them for shared facts. And your view isnt ghandis. You said you would actively support the troops if they went in, how does this make you have views like Ghandi?

<strong>
P.S. The American race, like the UK one is a convergance of many different cultures.
</strong>
which was exactly my point, there is no "american race" to be racist against

<strong>
To be a racist is not to hate a country or it's people but to have a bias against it.
</strong>
how many times must I repeat, i dont hate Americans, I hate the American governments and the only president from the last 100 years with any integrity was JFK.

<strong>
And to hate a country is to hate its people,
</strong>
no its not, to hate people is to hate people. This is a point which many Americans also miss. Its often thought that the way opinion polls from throughout Europe are negative towards the American governments actions, that Europeans hate americans, which is untrue.

<strong>
it's a very strong remark which could hurt many people. I guess though you mean you hate the way it is run buy idiots, that is not racist it's free speach <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> can we talk about nuclear cargo now?</strong>
America isnt run by idiots, its run by very smart men and women, their public figure is however, an absolute moron

aye i agree this has become stagnant now, bickering and ad hominen attacks instead of tackling the issues, lets move on to nuclear cargo, civil rights movement or israel/palestine
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