God v Science v State of mind

[aunt gary]

hey there sports fans

Bible aren't always ment to be taken literally.

i dont think it there meant 2 be taken seriously, they were jus takin the piss. that whole thing of galaxy's is a good point, maybe there god is the power ranger's in space?

chow ding

[AlanG]

thats exactly the problem the funds have. To they take it as all literal, as all interpreted or if you take it as a mixture, which ones are too ridiculous to be literal hehe

[Shiny Daemon]

Yeah like the one about Jesus at the wedding, everyone finishes all the wine and Jesus supposedly turns water into wine.
My guess is that they were too pissed to notice that they were just drinking water

[AlanG]

my personal favourite biblical lunacy is Kings 1 7:23

in case you cant find online bible it states that Pi = 3

of course the men of the time would find that a good estimate but if you saw context and remember its the "divine inspired word of God" you realise how silly it is.

[alien_syndm]

Ok so which parts exactly are to be taken literally and which parts aren't ? Do you get to choose yourself or is there a set of rules? Take the genesis flood for isntance, do people believe this happened? It is interesting to note that in practically every religion there is, at some point there has been a catastrophic flood where only a select few survived. Many books have been written about geological evidence for a world wide flood, then of course there are the impressions in mout Ararat. So if something this fantastical were to be true does this mean you must take all things biblical literally or could you still choose?

[AlanG]

there is no geological evidence for a worldwide flood, due to geology being a science.

Go read Flood dismissed

more

The best part is the calculations given for animals. Depending on which creationist you discuss this with, the dinosaurs were on the ark then died after getting off or some baby dinosaurs were on and then changed(but not by using evolution!!!!) into different "kinds" which no creationist can define. There were either 2 of the unclean animals or 7 of each clean one. But they need to be all babies due to size. Ive seen massive calculations not only for how much water is needed to flood the earth but also for the biomass of the animals and plants on board. the most fun though is the amount of shit produced by the animals and it works out that it would need each of the people on board to shift a ton of shit per second each or something hehe. Not to mention the ONE window in the boat meaning massive methane quantities due to clean air not circulating. They also say that all the waters became one and mixed, meaning less difference between sea/fresh water, plus the massive quantities of rain for flood would push the salt quantity of the water right up, this quiote obviously poses a problem for the fresh water fish

roofles owned god

[alien_syndm]

Wrong, there is evidence for a world wide flood. Try reading a differing opinion, eg http://www.genesisfiles.com/ or http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-168.htm
I do find some of the entries in encyclopedia britannica amusing, look under fossils and it will state you can ascertain their date from the rocks they were found in. Look under rocks and it will say you can ascertain their date from the fossils found in them. Many scientific theories(like evolution for example, yes thats theory not fact) change completely depending on what scientist you speak to, the hubble constant is another good example.
I do doubt some of your calculations there, 1 tonne per second, hmmm sounds a bit much really, perhaps the or something part you mentioned is more accurate.
Religion is why, science is how. So often they are confused. Science basically states that hyrdogen gas, given long enough will turn into human beings, thats a pretty big leap of faith if you ask me.
Roofles owned god did he ? Well where is his influence? Whatever your view point no person has influenced history as much as Jesus.

[Shiny Daemon]

Originally posted by alien_syndm
I do doubt some of your calculations there, 1 tonne per second, hmmm sounds a bit much really

Not really when you think about it. The arc supposedly held two of every species of animal on earth. So wouldnt that include variations of every species aswell? As an example think of all the different types of dogs that you get. Now although not every species has as distinctive and as many variations as dogs they should still be taken into consideration.

[njw]

aye but it was a big boat mind!

[AlanG]

Originally posted by alien_syndm
Wrong, there is evidence for a world wide flood. Try reading a differing opinion, eg http://www.genesisfiles.com/ or http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-168.htm

hahhahahahahahah
sorry I cant believe people try to actually source ICR, "Dr" Kent Hovind has been refuted several times not only on his credentials but his theories.

I do find some of the entries in encyclopedia britannica amusing, look under fossils and it will state you can ascertain their date from the rocks they were found in. Look under rocks and it will say you can ascertain their date from the fossils found in them.

try reading up on how rocks are actually dated rather than an encyclopedia. Remember, fossils are found in rocks but they are ALSO rock.

Many scientific theories(like evolution for example, yes thats theory not fact)

its theory AND fact. The fact is that species change over time, new ones appear and new genetic variance appears and the theory is how most people believe it happenned.

In the same way gravity is a theory AND a fact. The fact is that mass is attracted to each other and gravitational theory tries to model how it happens.

change completely depending on what scientist you speak to,

thats what science is about. Different scientists putting forward their theories on what happens, and the one with most data to back it up gains popularity. See also Wave/particle theory fo light for example fo scientists changing their opinion completely depending on who you ask on lights behaviour.

I do doubt some of your calculations there, 1 tonne per second, hmmm sounds a bit much really, perhaps the or something part you mentioned is more accurate.

that was a guestimate, coudlnt remember the figure given, Ill go find it.

Religion is why, science is how. So often they are confused. Science basically states that hyrdogen gas, given long enough will turn into human beings, thats a pretty big leap of faith if you ask me.

the bible states god made man from dust. Why is abiogenesis (what you are attacking) any different from that?

Roofles owned god did he ? Well where is his influence? Whatever your view point no person has influenced history as much as Jesus.

roofles owned god, means "ROFL 'god' has been owned" was having a larf.
Jesus hasnt influenced Christianity nearly as much as the actual physical human beings in charge of the churches have. A la the crusades, witch hunts and inquisition

[GemDeLaCreme]

Alan is brain in overload or sumthin?

[AlanG]

Originally posted by GemDeLaCreme
Alan is brain in overload or sumthin?

yes, and im also just back from pub

heres one guys calculations about flood water etc.

This is a fun look at the great flood based on the literal interpretation of the bible and our current study of the earth.
Please feel free to check and correct any math mistakes I make.
This turned out a bit long.

Math of the flood:
The bible says the flood covered every mountain (Gen 7:19-20). Mount Everest is the current largest mountain. Its approx 5.5 miles above sea level. I have rounded it down to 5 miles because the earth is bumpy and its better to under estimate than over estimate.
There are some theories that mountains weren’t as high as they are now, and that the flood only flooded a 17,000 foot high mountain. However there are flaws to both of these, and ill address them later.
The Radius of the Earth = 3963 miles
The Radius of the earth with 5 miles of water = 3968 Miles.
The volume of the earth = 260711882973.3396 cubic miles
The volume of the earth with water = 261699925947.5533 cubic miles.
261699925947.5533 - 260711882973.3396 = 988042974.2136999965

So the volume of the flood water = 988,042,974.2136999965 cubic miles. But lets round it to 988,042,974 Cubic Miles.
If this water was put into a sphere, it would have a radius of 618 Miles.

According to this site (http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthwherewater.html) there is a total of 326,000,000 Cubic Miles of water on the earth. So the flood waters were 3 times the total amount of water on the entire earth.
The data says there there is approx 9,016,000 Cubic Miles of water that is currently underground or not filling a space on the surface (like an ocean). These sources of water would include Ground water, soil moisture, and ice caps and glaciers.

The bible says that some of the water came from the ground and some from rain (Gen 7:11). So if we gave the bible the benefit of the doubt and said that 10x more water resided under ground then, than it does now (10 times more water in the soil and ground water) and that the ice caps melted. We would get 27,160,000 cubic miles of water. It would still only equal 3% of the total flood waters.

Lets take a look at a square foot section of the earth. Over the course of 40 days, it would rain 25608 cubic feet(instead of 26400 cubic feet because of the 792 feet of ground water). We can use this data because we are dealing with a 25608 foot, by 1 foot by 1 foot column.

25608 ft^3 / 40 days = 640.2 cubic feet of water per day per square foot
640.2 ft^3 / 24 hours = 26.7 cubic feet of water per hour per square foot
2.6.7 ft^3 / 60 minutes = 0.4 cubic feet of water per minute per square foot. Or 3 gallons of water per minute per square foot.
That would equal 25.5 pounds of water per minute per square foot.
It doesn’t seem like too much water at first, but lets look at it outside of a square foot.
A standard american football field is 360 ft x 160ft (including end zones). 57,600 square feet.
So that would be 0.4 ft^3 * 57,600 = 23,040 cubic feet of water per minute on the football field. Or 172,351 Gallons of water. That would weigh 1,464,983.5 pounds or 732.5 tons of water per minute, will fall on that football field.

The ark is said to be 300 cubits long, by 50 cubits wide (Gen 6:15). The dictionary definition of a cubit says that its between 17” and 22” so ill use the average of those at 19.5” so the ark was approx 487.5 feet long 81.25 feet wide. Or 39,731.25 square feet. Assuming that the top of the ark was the same approx square footage. That would mean that 15,892.5 cubic feet of water would fall on the ark per minute or 118,884 Gallons per minute. Or 505 tons of water per minute falling on the ark.

After the flood, it was said that a dove brought back an olive leaf (Gen 8:11). Olive trees grow at the utmost of 5000ft. The weight and power of the flood would probably have destroyed olive trees. The few leaves that would remain would have settled down in the mud.

There are quite a few more problems with the flood, but this is getting rather long so I think ill cut it rather short.


Flood Theories:

I have heard a couple different flood theories about why the literal flood could have happened. None that I have heard so far hold any water.

First: Is that the flood, flooded only high hills (Gen 7:19), and yet it covered the entire earth because there were no big mountains before the flood. The flood water then somehow formed all the mountains.
There are a couple problems with this. First of all, animal fossils of different dates layer these mountains If the mountains formed from a small hill all at once, then every animal fossil should be around the same date. Second, the earthquakes and geological disasters of the formation of these mountains would be catastrophic. Much more compared to the flood. Both science and the bible lack any reference to a giant catastrophic earthquake and formation of 5.5 mile mountains. So its pretty safe to say that these mountains were there during the flood.

Second: The flood only flooded the top of a 17,000 high mountain.
This would mean that area was left on the earth. So taking the bible literally, god didn’t actually cover the entire earth. Nor would the flood secure the death of every animal and man on the planet, as there was still land left for them to run too. Most would die, but a few could remain.

Third: Animals on the ark were taken as babies, so they could fit them all on board.
There are a couple problems with this. First of all, there are quite a few animals that need their mothers to take care of them. This would increase the work load on Noah's family to way beyond the ability of 8 people. To act as a constant parent to many, many babies.
The second problem comes from the fact that many animals learn how to act when they are young. Being held in a captive environment for part of their young days would possibly hinder their ability to live in the real world.The ark was only floating for half a year, however that could be enough to effect some animal babies. However, an adult animal would still remember how to live in the real world and it wouldn’t have an effect.

Fourth: Only a small amount of animals were taken aboard, many micro evolved afterwards.
This wouldn't work. Basic Science categorizes a species as an animal that cant breed succefully with another species (there are some species that can, however it doesn't create good results). So every single species on earth, Must have been on the ark. Unless creationists want to concede that macro evolution is possible.


Noahs Fish problem.

This is where the bible gets slightly cloudy It doesn’t specify that noah took aboard fish, however he needed too, and it does say All animals (Gen 6:20). So we can assume he took aboard fish.
Especially since there are many fish that are sensitive to the salt content in the water, the flood would have lowered it and caused many fish to die. But since those fish are alive today, they must have been on board the ark. This posses an interesting problem for Noah. Not only did noah have to load all of those animals, he needed to find the correct salt and PH content water for these sensitive fish. He then needed to fill tanks for them and transfer the fish into those tanks. The bible lacks any description of how this activity was done.

Noah's Whale problem.

Whales couldn’t survive the flood, as the amount of water falling would displace the air and not allow them to breath. Also if we look at the bible, god says he killed everything on earth (that wasn’t on the ark) (Gen 7:23).
Now, whales pose and interesting problem. Not only do they need water to swim in, but they need an air pocket to get oxygen from. This air pocket would need to be replenished with fresh oxygen, without filling up with water from the flood.
Just two blue whales alone would pose a big problem. If we go with an average size as 70 feet long, 16 feet wide and 16 feet tall. If you built a tank that the two whales could move in but was cramped. It would span the entire width of the ark at 81.25 feet. Around 145 feet long (only 5 feet longer than the two whales end to end). If the height of it was cramped and was only 25 feet high, only 9 feet of room to move, (this would limit the other two stories on noah ark (which was 48.75 feet tall) to 11.88 feet tall for each story). The tank would be 294,531.25 cubic feet of water or 2,203,246.75 Gallons of water. That would equal 9,363.8 Tons of water. For two animals. Not to mention the problem of getting the blue whales into the ark, as it was sealed before the flood waters came (Gen 7:13,16).


“God Did It”

A common explination for the flood is that “God did it” since he can do anything he wants. Now this is fine, however it does pose a couple of problems.

One, If “god did it” why didn’t he have everything he did written down in the bible? Why does the bible state the small fact that god closed the ark’s door (Gen 7:16), but not that he protected it from all the flood water?

Two, If you take the literal interpretation of the bible as the truth, then god did nothing else than was is written in the bible. To say that god did do something else, is to rewrite a part of the bible, or to not take it literally. To rewrite the bible and to put words and actions in gods mouth is not something a christian would want to do.
- Ari

the place I saw the poo stats is down