God v Science v State of mind

kj · 23rd February 2003, 01:17 AM

Ever found yourself praying to 'God' even though you're not a religious person? my question to you is do you believe in God? if so, why, and if not, why not?
I think a religion v science type debate would be good for a change, a bit off topic. I personally dont believe that each religion has its own God, because that wouldnt make sense, i think there is one overseeing entity, be it a human like entity, an energy source or whatever, but i do believe that there is something that we are yet to experience, and i like that thought / belief. My view is that everyone needs to believe in something.

Afro Joe · 23rd February 2003, 10:34 AM

I've found myself saying "please god" or whatever even though I'm not a religious person at all. I've never been religious, I was brought up in an unreligious family. This may or not be the best way depending on your outlook.
I don't believe in the convential "God" but, as you said KJ, everyone needs something to believe in. I'm still trying to find mine. I'd like to think that there is some sort of entity that watches over the world that they created, but I just can't see myself getting into religion. I find it monotonous, boring and sometimes I feel people are being brainwashed by it. Which scares me.
This is all just my opinion of course, I know there will be some religious people on these boards and I don't mean to offend.

Ally G · 23rd February 2003, 11:00 AM

I don't think that science and religion are incompatible, it's possible to believe in god and be a scientist. I'm not though, i think we have enough problems trusting what we can see hear and touch without wondering if some entity which through it's very nature evidence of is impossible exists or not.

njw · 23rd February 2003, 09:42 PM

im not sure if i can believe in one over seeing entity... i think the possibility that our earth was a freak accident that occured in a strange chemical reaction is possible, but im not sure about that either... im currently writing an extended report on exactly this but i wont go into all the details... all i know is there is no proof for anything... the only thing that can be proved are numbers, and numbers were invented by man... bugger!

I was brought up in a religious christian family, and one result of that is not that i believe in god, but i have developed a respect for the human mind and spirit. The vulnerability is incredible, and just the fact that we're discussing questions about god vs. science shows how complicated we've made it for ourselves.... is the human awareness a fault in the evolution process?

theres one for you to think about, i wont go into my theories because i've been warned about it before... it offends people easily.

I dont think I actually raised a valid point to do with the argument at all but hey.... peace

Flaming Toilet Bag · 23rd February 2003, 10:50 PM

I ponder this quite a bit actually, as pretentious as it sounds. I think, for me, it's hard to believe in 'many gods' as someone already said.
My parents were Christian, and I was a 'born Christian', but thankfully they never tried to force me to share the same views as them. These days, I'm becoming somewhat of an atheist; it's becoming increasingly difficult to believe in anything on a higher level of existence than me. At the same time, I can't figure out quite why we're here in the first place.
If we take the scientist's view, they would probably say that we're here to contribute to the genepool and piss off, basically. Whereas, a religious person would probably debate that it was for us to lead a good life and be true to God, which I don't believe anymore.
Religion can be a good thing in my opinion, it gives people hope and they can find refuge in it, like a warm blanket - it makes them feel secure. I don't feel secure, perhaps because I'm not religious, but it's Catch-22 for me really - I don't feel like I belong to any God or anything.
Therefore, my view on life is pretty much equivalent to the scientist's view - we're here to procreate, because if this entity actually existed and it's mission was to create a good life for human existence, then why doesn't it intervene in everything bad that happens. It's true yeah, he didn't really intend for humans to fuck up as badly as we have done, but I mean honestly, look at us - the planet's in some fucking state, you think he might make his grand appearance what? in the last 100, 200 years.
The Bible was written about 200 years after Jesus died, and it's pretty much word of mouth. A reliable source? I think not. I'm not a scientist in anyway, I'm a cynic

Sorry for extra long ramble, I'm usually drunk when I go on like this.

Ally G · 24th February 2003, 12:52 PM

Hey Knee Cow, i like your point about a flaw in the evolutionary process, i've had thoughts iin that direction myself-- no animal lives in it's own shit to the extent we do after all.
Rossie, i don't think you have to be religious to want to live a moral life- in fact there are serious logical problems in associating morality with god.
Anyway, enough psuedophilosophy, lets get back to bitching about bands!
Anyone like Fractal Patterns by the way?

Flaming Toilet Bag · 24th February 2003, 02:44 PM

But some religions do demand morals, I'm not saying ALL religion does, but some do.

Ally G · 24th February 2003, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rossie

If we take the scientist's view, they would probably say that we're here to contribute to the genepool and piss off, basically. Whereas, a religious person would probably debate that it was for us to lead a good life and be true to God, which I don't believe anymore

Nah man, what i was saying is that while you say the religious persons view would be to live the good life, you can try to live the good life without God or religion.
I'd also have to say that i can't think of a religion that doesn't have moral guidelines- it's just they tend to come from the idea that 'so and so is right because god commands it' which is logically all fucked up- Aristotle ( i think) the euphrides question.
Like- if the action is right because god commands it, then anythigh god commands would be right, so even if he commanded killing your parents it would be right
OR if god commands the action because it is right then it has to be right in itself, and so that means god doesn't have poiwer over right and wrong, so he's not omnipotent.
Uh, anyway- that fucking Koala band are shite by the way... Post-hardcore emo wannabe shit!

AlanG · 24th February 2003, 06:43 PM

Dunno wether theres a God or not, so that makes me an Agnostic Atheist. All I know for sure is Yahweh doesnt bloody exist and thats for sure

considering the contradictions between the OT/NT and within it.

For anyone saying they are atheistic I recommmend

Infidels
and
Talk Origins

and for shits n giggles

"Dr" Kent "Tax Fraud" Hovind
and
Answers In Genesis

think all those addys are right...

colshank redemption · 24th February 2003, 10:24 PM

well i dont believe in something i havnt seen. i might offened some ppl here but im gonna go for it anyway.

my view is religion is for weak minded ppl who need to intrust there faith into something, they choose a god cos there led to believe that the god they will worship is immortal, strong & powerful who will look over them & protect them.

if there realy was a god then there would be no deasise in the world, no wars, no violent deaths. i wonder how many ppl in the twin towers were religious, where was there god when the planes went into the towers?

i dont like religion, god is fake. my own opions of course, i could go into deeper reasons why i have my views but im not going to.

kj · 24th February 2003, 11:39 PM

the way i see it is this, everyone has their opinion, on religion and other things. i personally believe in a God. I believe in certain respect that what you do dictates what happens to you when you pass away. My religion, Sikhism, is mainly performance based, and we respect all other faiths and religions. I dont think people who believe in Christianity are wrong, and the same goes for Islam or any other faith.
God helped me get where i am today, helped me through uni, brought me into this world and blessed me with all sorts of good things, but also bads things which you learn from.
To argue that if there is a god there wouldnt be any suffering or misery or terrorist activities is not a good argument. Do you honestly believe there could be a world inhabited by billions living in perfect harmony? People have their own believes and reap the rewards or pay the consequences depending on their beliefs. God doesnt control people, people control people. its a state of mind, its a decision you make.

I get wicked upset at all the crap that goes on between religions, arguing over who is right and who is wrong. its all a waste of time. If you have a belief, stick to it, and keep it to yourself, dont force it on others, beause then it goes from being a religion to something else, something forced.

I'm not preaching and i hope i dont come across all religious, because those of you who know me know that i very rarely talk about religion

goatboy · 25th February 2003, 01:21 PM

It seems to me that since we crawled out of the primeval ooze we've been trying to explain the world around us. Obviously years ago we didn't have much in the way of objective scientific knowledge so we used the supernatural to fill in the gaps eg lightning gods, fire gods, etc. This way of thinking became so ingrained that people continue to believe in some over-riding power even though the phenomena this power was originally been invoked to explain has been shown to be perfectly natural.

I guess some people will never get out of this way of thinking. In some ways it's good as it gives people hope in a world they find baffling (my girlfriend can't believe I don't believe in some kind of afterlife even though sh'es not religious - she just finds the idea so comforting). However, differing beliefs in all these various powers have also led to more death and suffering than anything else in the world.

Can't help thinking we'd be better off without it all in the long run. As soon as people learn to handle living in a world without the crutch of a creator can't we just ditch it?

And if the Big Man really does exist he should lose the beard, it's so 70s...

colshank redemption · 25th February 2003, 01:57 PM

yeah fair point KJ about god stopping the pain & misery etc. but thats just my opion, if i was a and the power to do so, i would put a end to it all, we can only hope that ppl can live in perfect harmony.
KJ u seem kinda devoted to ur beliefs, so what do u think god does now? u say he helped you through uni, but then u said god doesnt control ppl. was it just ur faith & belief that helped u motivate urself?
i might sound a bit sarcastic there but im honestly not, i just wanna know what u mean by saying god helped u.

23rd February 2003, 01:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
kj gimp Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 13,966 Band: A band of merry men	God v Science v State of mind Ever found yourself praying to 'God' even though you're not a religious person? my question to you is do you believe in God? if so, why, and if not, why not? I think a religion v science type debate would be good for a change, a bit off topic. I personally dont believe that each religion has its own God, because that wouldnt make sense, i think there is one overseeing entity, be it a human like entity, an energy source or whatever, but i do believe that there is something that we are yet to experience, and i like that thought / belief. My view is that everyone needs to believe in something. __________________ This community cannot survive without your continued support. galleries \|\| links directory \|\| profiles \|\| wiki

23rd February 2003, 09:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
njw Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: DD1 Posts: 8,204	im not sure if i can believe in one over seeing entity... i think the possibility that our earth was a freak accident that occured in a strange chemical reaction is possible, but im not sure about that either... im currently writing an extended report on exactly this but i wont go into all the details... all i know is there is no proof for anything... the only thing that can be proved are numbers, and numbers were invented by man... bugger! I was brought up in a religious christian family, and one result of that is not that i believe in god, but i have developed a respect for the human mind and spirit. The vulnerability is incredible, and just the fact that we're discussing questions about god vs. science shows how complicated we've made it for ourselves.... is the human awareness a fault in the evolution process? theres one for you to think about, i wont go into my theories because i've been warned about it before... it offends people easily. I dont think I actually raised a valid point to do with the argument at all but hey.... peace __________________ You can put a cat in the oven, but that doesn't make it a biscuit.

23rd February 2003, 10:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
Flaming Toilet Bag Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 2,537	I ponder this quite a bit actually, as pretentious as it sounds. I think, for me, it's hard to believe in 'many gods' as someone already said. My parents were Christian, and I was a 'born Christian', but thankfully they never tried to force me to share the same views as them. These days, I'm becoming somewhat of an atheist; it's becoming increasingly difficult to believe in anything on a higher level of existence than me. At the same time, I can't figure out quite why we're here in the first place. If we take the scientist's view, they would probably say that we're here to contribute to the genepool and piss off, basically. Whereas, a religious person would probably debate that it was for us to lead a good life and be true to God, which I don't believe anymore. Religion can be a good thing in my opinion, it gives people hope and they can find refuge in it, like a warm blanket - it makes them feel secure. I don't feel secure, perhaps because I'm not religious, but it's Catch-22 for me really - I don't feel like I belong to any God or anything. Therefore, my view on life is pretty much equivalent to the scientist's view - we're here to procreate, because if this entity actually existed and it's mission was to create a good life for human existence, then why doesn't it intervene in everything bad that happens. It's true yeah, he didn't really intend for humans to fuck up as badly as we have done, but I mean honestly, look at us - the planet's in some fucking state, you think he might make his grand appearance what? in the last 100, 200 years. The Bible was written about 200 years after Jesus died, and it's pretty much word of mouth. A reliable source? I think not. I'm not a scientist in anyway, I'm a cynic Sorry for extra long ramble, I'm usually drunk when I go on like this. Last edited by Rossie : 23rd February 2003 at 10:55 PM.

24th February 2003, 06:43 PM	#9 (permalink)
AlanG ModSword +5 of Editing Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dundee Posts: 3,368	blah Dunno wether theres a God or not, so that makes me an Agnostic Atheist. All I know for sure is Yahweh doesnt bloody exist and thats for sure considering the contradictions between the OT/NT and within it. For anyone saying they are atheistic I recommmend Infidels and Talk Origins and for shits n giggles "Dr" Kent "Tax Fraud" Hovind and Answers In Genesis think all those addys are right... __________________ Ernie Ross - "I'm not a rent-a-quote MP" 10 Sep 04 Ernie Ross being a rent-a-quote MP 23 Jul 04 Last edited by AlanG : 24th February 2003 at 06:47 PM.

24th February 2003, 11:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
kj gimp Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 13,966 Band: A band of merry men	the way i see it is this, everyone has their opinion, on religion and other things. i personally believe in a God. I believe in certain respect that what you do dictates what happens to you when you pass away. My religion, Sikhism, is mainly performance based, and we respect all other faiths and religions. I dont think people who believe in Christianity are wrong, and the same goes for Islam or any other faith. God helped me get where i am today, helped me through uni, brought me into this world and blessed me with all sorts of good things, but also bads things which you learn from. To argue that if there is a god there wouldnt be any suffering or misery or terrorist activities is not a good argument. Do you honestly believe there could be a world inhabited by billions living in perfect harmony? People have their own believes and reap the rewards or pay the consequences depending on their beliefs. God doesnt control people, people control people. its a state of mind, its a decision you make. I get wicked upset at all the crap that goes on between religions, arguing over who is right and who is wrong. its all a waste of time. If you have a belief, stick to it, and keep it to yourself, dont force it on others, beause then it goes from being a religion to something else, something forced. I'm not preaching and i hope i dont come across all religious, because those of you who know me know that i very rarely talk about religion __________________ This community cannot survive without your continued support. galleries \|\| links directory \|\| profiles \|\| wiki Last edited by kj : 24th February 2003 at 11:41 PM.

23rd February 2003, 10:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
Afro Joe Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Glasgow Posts: 7,284	I've found myself saying "please god" or whatever even though I'm not a religious person at all. I've never been religious, I was brought up in an unreligious family. This may or not be the best way depending on your outlook. I don't believe in the convential "God" but, as you said KJ, everyone needs something to believe in. I'm still trying to find mine. I'd like to think that there is some sort of entity that watches over the world that they created, but I just can't see myself getting into religion. I find it monotonous, boring and sometimes I feel people are being brainwashed by it. Which scares me. This is all just my opinion of course, I know there will be some religious people on these boards and I don't mean to offend.

23rd February 2003, 11:00 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ally G Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 2,506	I don't think that science and religion are incompatible, it's possible to believe in god and be a scientist. I'm not though, i think we have enough problems trusting what we can see hear and touch without wondering if some entity which through it's very nature evidence of is impossible exists or not.

24th February 2003, 12:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
Ally G Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 2,506	Hey Knee Cow, i like your point about a flaw in the evolutionary process, i've had thoughts iin that direction myself-- no animal lives in it's own shit to the extent we do after all. Rossie, i don't think you have to be religious to want to live a moral life- in fact there are serious logical problems in associating morality with god. Anyway, enough psuedophilosophy, lets get back to bitching about bands! Anyone like Fractal Patterns by the way?

24th February 2003, 02:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
Flaming Toilet Bag Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 2,537	But some religions do demand morals, I'm not saying ALL religion does, but some do.

24th February 2003, 10:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
colshank redemption Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: anstruther Posts: 843	well i dont believe in something i havnt seen. i might offened some ppl here but im gonna go for it anyway. my view is religion is for weak minded ppl who need to intrust there faith into something, they choose a god cos there led to believe that the god they will worship is immortal, strong & powerful who will look over them & protect them. if there realy was a god then there would be no deasise in the world, no wars, no violent deaths. i wonder how many ppl in the twin towers were religious, where was there god when the planes went into the towers? i dont like religion, god is fake. my own opions of course, i could go into deeper reasons why i have my views but im not going to.

25th February 2003, 01:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
goatboy Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: edinburgh Posts: 7	It seems to me that since we crawled out of the primeval ooze we've been trying to explain the world around us. Obviously years ago we didn't have much in the way of objective scientific knowledge so we used the supernatural to fill in the gaps eg lightning gods, fire gods, etc. This way of thinking became so ingrained that people continue to believe in some over-riding power even though the phenomena this power was originally been invoked to explain has been shown to be perfectly natural. I guess some people will never get out of this way of thinking. In some ways it's good as it gives people hope in a world they find baffling (my girlfriend can't believe I don't believe in some kind of afterlife even though sh'es not religious - she just finds the idea so comforting). However, differing beliefs in all these various powers have also led to more death and suffering than anything else in the world. Can't help thinking we'd be better off without it all in the long run. As soon as people learn to handle living in a world without the crutch of a creator can't we just ditch it? And if the Big Man really does exist he should lose the beard, it's so 70s...

25th February 2003, 01:57 PM	#13 (permalink)
colshank redemption Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: anstruther Posts: 843	yeah fair point KJ about god stopping the pain & misery etc. but thats just my opion, if i was a and the power to do so, i would put a end to it all, we can only hope that ppl can live in perfect harmony. KJ u seem kinda devoted to ur beliefs, so what do u think god does now? u say he helped you through uni, but then u said god doesnt control ppl. was it just ur faith & belief that helped u motivate urself? i might sound a bit sarcastic there but im honestly not, i just wanna know what u mean by saying god helped u.

25th February 2003, 04:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
Rainbow_brite Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: in a nice wee place :) Posts: 3,688