id cards, it gets better and better

[Göbb Hayte]

[quote=1010011010]IMO:

ID cards will not stop even come close to being successful fighting terrorism. (is this possible in any case?how do you fight against a idea?)QUOTE]

western governments are forever waging wars against ideas, the war on communism for example, the war on drugs is similar, waging a war against plants and substances. when there's no enemy to frighten the shit out of people, one is manufactured, because our governments, just like religions, thrive on fear, they need a bogeyman so everyone comes cowering to them for protection. Conflict's most recent (and in my opinion best) album is called "there's no power without control" and there's no control without fear. what is at the root of anyone's choice to conform is fear, fear of violence, imprisonment, rejection or ridicule.

[Red_Baron]

How long would it take to hack the central database?

It probably wouldn't be that easy. A well designed database sitting on a unix platform is pretty safe. And once you're in you'll need to know the tables to search for, what to search for and even then the data will probably be encrypted.

It could even be that the database will be a massage based system in which case you'll need to get a hold of the message schema to be able to send the correct message to get the correct data.

I'm quite happy to have everything stored in one place.

[1010011010]

I still reckon that it opens up an opportunity for fraudsters which wasn't previously there. They will have one area on which to focus their attentions whereas before their approach has been more fragmented.

The Government should come clean about its motivations for introducing the scheme.

Remember the justifications for Iraq? WMD. Then it became something else - regime change(although they still won't admit to this).

Initially the ID cards were for preventing terrorism. Now it's benefit fraud.

Transparency please Mr. Blair.

[Red_Baron]

The Government should come clean about its motivations for introducing the scheme.

Remember the justifications for Iraq? WMD. Then it became something else - regime change(although they still won't admit to this).

Initially the ID cards were for preventing terrorism. Now it's benefit fraud.

Transparency please Mr. Blair.

I totally agree give us a decent reason to introduce them (and I think there are a few)

[Göbb Hayte]

Originally Posted by 1010011010

I still reckon that it opens up an opportunity for fraudsters which wasn't previously there. They will have one area on which to focus their attentions whereas before their approach has been more fragmented.

The Government should come clean about its motivations for introducing the scheme.

Remember the justifications for Iraq? WMD. Then it became something else - regime change(although they still won't admit to this).

Initially the ID cards were for preventing terrorism. Now it's benefit fraud.

Transparency please Mr. Blair.

yep, and before WMD it was for having connections to Al Qaida. you're never going to get transparency from governments, because if people were allowed to know the truth they wouldn't support the government any more. has anyone seen the documentary that comes with the DVD of city of god? in an interview with the chief of police, he says "my job is to protect the privileged by preserving the boundaries between them and the poor" look up the etymology of the word privilege, it literally means "private law" (privi-private ledge-law) that's all government is about, the protection of the privileged minority.

[humndislocation]

That's a bit of a stretch there, I think you're exaggerating.

While, yeah, there is an element of corruption I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that all government is simply the rich forcing their whims upon the poor.

[Rebelius]

And that film's set in Brazil. Which isn't the UK.

[graham enzk]

Monday 27 June 2005 07:25am


ID cards cost 'could reach £18bn'


A national identity card scheme could cost up to £18 billion, a team of academics is expected to warn.

The report by experts from the London School of Economics (LSE) will provide more ammunition for critics of the scheme, who are voicing a wide range of concerns about the proposals.

Sceptics are warning that ID cards could become New Labour's poll tax.

Ministers are steeling themselves for a tough battle over the project, with MPs getting their first chance to vote on the proposals since the election when the Identity Card Bill gets its second reading in the Commons tomorrow.

Labour backbenchers look unlikely to rebel in sufficient numbers to defeat the Government, but peers seem certain to table a raft of amendments which could radically alter the scheme when the Bill reaches the Lords.

The LSE's detailed report on the scheme's feasibility rounds off a six-month study which involved a steering group of 14 professors, and a research group of nearly 100 academics, experts, and industry representatives from around the world.

In March, the LSE's draft report estimated that the project could cost between £12 billion and £18 billion over 10 years. Basing their calculations on those figures, some commentators then estimated that cards could cost citizens £300 each.

Home Secretary Charles Clarke dismissed that as "a complete nonsense figure", restating that the Government estimated an "indicative" unit cost of around £93. While emphasising that its report had not suggested an individual card figure, the LSE team stood by its estimate for the overall cost.

They said that figure took into account the costs of integrating the project with public sector bodies - a factor which, they said, had not been assessed by the Government.

Ahead of the report's publication, the Government's most immediate concern was to rebut a suggestion that the Government could sell personal details stored on the supporting database to help meet the huge costs.

(c) Copyright Press Association Ltd 2005, All Rights Reserved.



so it might cost us anywhere between £93 (which is unit cost i noted not the actual charge) and £300. so what happens if you can't actually afford one?

[Caliban]

Originally Posted by Göbb Hayte

i think the best thing to do about the whole terrorist situation would be to not support countries *cough* america *cough* who storm around the world fucking about with other countries affairs, murdering thousands so they can install a pathetic charade of democracy. just a thought.

Goddamn your right! there would have been no Bloody Sunday or Omagh bombing or without those fucking yanks!

[humndislocation]

Originally Posted by Caliban

Goddamn your right! there would have been no Bloody Sunday or Omagh bombing or without those fucking yanks!

Well you could argue that American support for the IRA didn't entirely help.

[graham enzk]

Thursday 04 August 2005 09:32am


Minister admits ID cards oversold


A Government minister has admitted that the advantages of national identity cards have been "over-emphasised".

Tony McNulty, the Home Office minister responsible for the project, said ID cards would not solve the problems of terrorism or fraud.

In its "enthusiasm" the Government had exaggerated the benefits to the state rather than for "the individual in providing a gold standard in proving your identity", he reportedly told a private seminar in Whitehall.

However, Mr McNulty reiterated that the Government remained committed to implementing the scheme.

Speaking to a left-wing think-tank, he said: "There are now so many almost daily occasions when we have to stand up and verify our identity."

He conceded that ID cards could help where fraud was "part of the equation" but would not fully eradicate such incidents.

Ministers will also bid to restore public confidence in the scheme by announcing a "ceiling" on the cost of each ID card after speculation it could be up to £300, Mr McNulty said.

A recent newspaper survey suggested that support for identity cards had slumped dramatically since the Government tabled legislation to introduce them.

The YouGov poll in the Daily Telegraph last month said backing for the controversial cards stood at just 45% - well down on the 78% who backed them in a similar survey in 2003.

The Government saw its majority of 67 cut to 31 by a rebellion of 20 Labour backbenchers against the ID Card Bill at its second reading in the House of Commons in June. Further resistance was expected when the Bill reaches the House of Lords.

(c) Copyright Press Association Ltd 2005, All Rights Reserved.

[AlanG]

This was picked up through No2IDs site:

source

'Big brother's here now'

STEVE DOWNES

03 September 2005 10:09

Home Secretary Charles Clarke last night tried to breathe new life into his bid to introduce national identity cards and declared: "Big Brother society is already here and my job is to control it."

He told the EDP that the argument that cards would infringe civil liberties was "ridiculous" - and promised to present new proposals about the cost and make-up of the ID cards "within a couple of weeks".

He attacked the "Big Brother state" accusation head-on, insisting: "People's names are already on a large number of databases.

"Most of us have dozens of cards in our wallets with our identities on. We already have a Big Brother society.

"ID cards mean identity fraud can be dealt with and stopped.

"ID cards are a means of controlling the Big Brother society rather than creating it. Big Brother society is already here."

The Bill to introduce ID cards went through its Second Reading in the House of Commons with a majority of just 31 on June 28, with MPs in all parties anxious about civil liberties and the cost.

Opponents are lining up to try to defeat the Government in the Bill's later stages, and promising fierce opposition in the House of Lords if it does clear the Commons.

A report from the London School of Economics (LSE) said the ID-card scheme could cost as much as £19bn, or about £200 per person - a claim dismissed by Mr Clarke as "complete nonsense".

But in an interview with the EDP, he said: "Can we produce a scheme which is worth it on cost?

"We've got a long way to go to persuade punters here in Norfolk and everywhere that they are a good thing."

Mr Clarke said he was a "militant supporter" of ID cards.

He said: "The whole thing depends on using ID cards in a number of different areas of life, including Criminal Records Bureau applications, driving licences, passports.

"It could reduce the number of cards you have in your pocket.

"I think the civil liberties argument is ridiculous.

"If we compare people's right not to be blown up with their right to civil liberties it is not difficult.

"No measure can absolutely guarantee to stop a particular event. But I believe ID cards will help. Most countries in Europe have ID cards."

He would not comment on how much the cards could cost, but said the LSE figures were "absurd".

"We have to remake the argument for ID cards. It needs to be re-articulated. The argument against is principally cost. I'm less preoccupied about the civil liberties issue."

The cards, which could be issued from 2008, are likely to include a photograph of the holder, along with their name, address, gender and date of birth. A microchip would also hold biometric information - a person's fingerprints or iris or facial scans.

Mr Clarke faces the busiest period since he took charge of the Home Office following David Blunkett's resignation last December and is planning a series of speeches in the lead-up to the party conference season to unveil his key policies.

He will talk to the European Union Parliament in Strasbourg on September 7 about the urgent need for cross-border co-operation to tackle international terror and crime.

And the following week he will outline his plans to overhaul the judicial and prisons system at a speech to the Prison Reform Trust.

His tray is full of unresolved issues, with the continued fallout from the London terror attacks, controversy over 24-hour licensing legislation and the never-ending arguments about immigration.

emphasis mine

so basically we already live in a BIg Brotehr society so introducing more authoritarian measures isnt a bad thing