Religion itself is the fount of most evil

graham enzk · 1st August 2005, 03:35 PM

Religion itself is the fount of most evil

Muriel Gray argues that it’s all very well blaming fundamentalism, but religion itself is at the core of the world’s problems. It’s time for us to free ourselves from its shackles and draw a clear line between all churches and the state

What’s the definition of a Conservative? A liberal who’s been mugged. I’ve kept this gag close over the last few weeks, lodging it as a reminder that immediate responses to the London nightmare are unlikely to be reasonable or helpful. But it’s been hard.
As the body parts of the murdered commuters were being bagged, and Iraqi children were blown apart for taking sweets from an American soldier, I sat by our daughter’s intensive care bed where, for the second time during her regrettably eventful 10 years, medical geniuses had saved her life. A pair of surgeons who shame Michelangelo with sculpting skills in flesh and bone, an anaesthetist possessed of the magic to rekindle glowing embers of life back into flame, and a team of tireless doctors and nurses grafted and toiled or her behalf in the sweltering temperatures of the Edinburgh heatwave, and then carried on grafting and toiling on behalf of all the other tiny mites and scraps of existence passing through their care.

It was impossible, while sitting reading the news in the pallid gloom of a ward silent save for ventilators breathing and heart monitors bleeping, not to make the sentimental juxtaposition of those who work so hard to fix broken human beings and those who work hard at breaking them. The difficulty was keeping not just tears, but hatred at bay. But thankfully it has come to a head.

As the news broke of the suspected bomber shot dead in the London Underground, a revolting emotion bubbled to the surface like marsh gas, that of exultation in revenge. It whispered: “Take that you murdering sod.”

It was the dark shame of having felt such a primitive tug that served the reminder not to be the mugged liberal, and even before we learned of the man’s innocence, the unconditional love of my fellow man was thankfully rebooted. That dead man was once someone’s darling baby boy, a bouncing, burbling bundle with all the pieces in place to delight in life. He is yet another victim now; murdered in error as a direct result of the insane, murderous, repugnant fascist philosophy that is driving young men across the globe to tear their own flesh apart alongside their victims.

Everyone is being blamed, from the obvious villainous duo of George W Bush and Tony Blair, to the inaction of Muslim “communities”. But it has never been clearer that there is only one place to lay the blame and it has ever been thus. The cause of all this misery, mayhem, violence, terror and ignorance is of course religion itself, and if it seems ludicrous to have to state such an obvious reality, the fact is that the government and the media are doing a pretty good job of pretending that it isn’t so.

Bush’s fundamentalist Christian insanity seems temporarily forgotten, and there is much talk of moderate Islam as if this is a jolly good thing, when in fact, in tandem with all other world religions, very much including Bush’s, it is a Dark Ages nonsense that should, of course, be tolerated and its adherents protected and permitted to practice it peacefully, but falls a very long way from meriting respect. The age of enlightenment freed reasoning humans from the shackles of crudely hewn anthropomorphic gods, leaving these man-made deities to serve those who wished to keep them alive for the purposes of comforting self-delusion, social control – particularly the control of women – and the validation of power, violence and aggression.

For the government of a secular country such as ours to treat religion as if it had real merit instead of regarding it as a ridiculous anachronism, which education, wisdom and experience can hopefully overcome in time, is one of the most depressing developments of the 21st century. Religious people must be treated with the same respect as non-religious people, but their religions should quite properly be regarded with the weary contempt they deserve. Instead we have debates on TV news shows between hardline Muslim scholars and moderate Muslim politicians without any intervening voice of scepticism suggesting that the whole darned thing might be just as invented as virgin births and Mormon tablets.

We have bishops arguing with Christian women about ordination as if this is an important issue, again without the obvious interjection that it is unlikely in the extreme that there exists any god at all, never mind a peculiar one who cares what sex wears the cassock. And there goes old nutty Ruth Kelly using taxpayers’ money to introduce a whole new clutch of assorted religious schools that will abuse the innocence of trusting children by teaching them superstition alongside facts to ensure they cannot separate the two.

The defence of any attacked faith is always to say: “You don’t understand our religion.” It’s considerably more likely that those defenders of their rrational beliefs have failed to understand Montesquieu, Hume, Rousseau and Diderot. The tattooed drunken morons attending an Orange walk are hardly theologians.

Since these are dark days, it’s time to stop all this polite tiptoeing around religion and harden up accordingly. Our elected leaders constantly bleating their respect for religion is not political correctness but a public declaration that intellect, tolerance, democracy, reason and enlightenment are of less value than dogma and delusion. Now’s the moment for a clear, definite, distinct line to be drawn between state and religion, one that defends the individual’s right to follow whatever ideology he or she wishes within the law, but also firmly declares and vigorously defends our collective ideals of gender equality, respect for differing sexual orientations and reinforces the message that there is no room whatsoever for the supernatural and the irrational. No bishops, mullahs, Presbyterian ministers, rabbis, or Scientologists should be gifted special hearings at Downing Street, but should confine themselves to wielding their power and freedom as the rest of us do, namely as ordinary voters, and the state-funded faith schools that shame us all with their manipulation of young minds must cease. We have all been mugged, but the shock must take us back to reason and as far away from religion as we can get.

24 July 2005

fairly interesting article.

DissolveD_JameS · 1st August 2005, 04:23 PM

This does look interesting, I will read it after work.

Hecate · 1st August 2005, 09:05 PM

Good article, straight to the heart of the matter

deadmike · 1st August 2005, 10:24 PM

load of rubbish.

"i dont believe in religion therefore i think its bad and should be attacked". lets just forget about the core messages of most religions being peace and love. also lets just ignore the countless efforts most religions do for charity. a completely one sided, single minded attack with absolutely no scope for the "full story" this reads like something from michael moore.

yeah religions really really bad and evil, satanism? quite good for you. he was a twisted bugger my dad....

Chunder · 1st August 2005, 11:37 PM

Yeah its also totally and completely western in its beliefs. 'the worlds religions'.... How does any of what has been written apply to pantheists, for which there are a sizeable number of in the world? Japan is a pantheistic nation, for example. They are born shinto or christian, married shinto or christian (often the opposite of what they were born), there buddhist when they die... There cool in believing any religion they want and take what they want from each religion. Im sure theres other countries like this too, maybe China and Korea... People seem to forget often that this side of the world exists because the media focuses so much on the middle east/europe/america world issues.

Im sure theres also huge amounts of individuals who are pantheistic.

The article is way too full of emotional rhetoric too, with not much in the way of facts or backup, yet claims something as strong as 'religion is the root of all evil'. I think I managed to give up such pointless beliefs when I was about 18...

Its like drugs... Drugs aint the problem, its the people that use them.... Same can be said about religion. Too many people in the world not prepared to think for themselves and too many people using religion to manipulate them. 'Manipulation of young minds'... Well Im sorry, but too many people are victims of their own design. My (crude, overgeneralised) 2 cents.....

graham enzk · 2nd August 2005, 11:16 AM

i think their point that religion should not have such a sway over political decisions is a good one. complete and definite seperation of church and state.
religion should be something for yourself not something used to manipulate others and to secure powers and wealth.

DissolveD_JameS · 2nd August 2005, 03:28 PM

Goddammit. I forgot about this thread after work lastnight. I'll try and remember to read it tonight.

Chunder · 3rd August 2005, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smallbob

i think their point that religion should not have such a sway over political decisions is a good one. complete and definite seperation of church and state.
religion should be something for yourself not something used to manipulate others and to secure powers and wealth.

Pretty difficult to escape the fact that if there is a predominant religion in a country, you can't seperate church and state, if the state is there for the society. Religious beliefs of a country permeate a society, even if your not religious, you are affected by those beliefs.

DissolveD_JameS · 3rd August 2005, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chunder

Pretty difficult to escape the fact that if there is a predominant religion in a country, you can't seperate church and state, if the state is there for the society. Religious beliefs of a country permeate a society, even if your not religious, you are affected by those beliefs.

This is the way it is. I don't see why it's the way it has to be though.

For me, religion is like football.

Most people support whatever team they were brought up to support. If not, they will choose to support whatever team is trendy to support. There are some people, the people who truly appreciate what football is about, who will pick a team based on what they find appealing. Whether it is their skills, their players, their glory or sportsmanship.

I don't support any football teams, but I do appreciate all of them for their obvious talent.

I don't follow any religions, but I do appreciate all of them for their obvious values.

Unfortunately too many people use their football team, or their religion (occassionally both at the same time) as an excuse for their actions. Actions that do not reflect the beauty of the game. Actions that do not reflect the values of their religion.

Chunder · 3rd August 2005, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DissolveD_JameS

This is the way it is. I don't see why it's the way it has to be though.

100's if not thousands of years of establishment and history?

Human desire to find mutual understanding and pattern in something?

The fact that we are social creatures, so we tend to 'monkey see, monkey do'.

I'd say theres a couple of reasons why its that way. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but I think there some of the themes that lead to why it's 'the way'.

humndislocation · 3rd August 2005, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chunder

Pretty difficult to escape the fact that if there is a predominant religion in a country, you can't seperate church and state, if the state is there for the society. Religious beliefs of a country permeate a society, even if your not religious, you are affected by those beliefs.

What we mean by seperation of church and state, is that the state shouldn't force religion on anyone. For example, christianity should not be taught in schools as if it were fact, unless you've chosen to send your child to a denominational school. People have a right to raise their children as they choose, without other people trying to indoctrinate them into their religion, when they are still too young to have developed bullshit detectors.

That said, the Americans have seperation of church and state, and this kind of thing seems to be more prevalent over there. Forcing teachers to teach intelligent design in science class, as if it were a scientific theory.

I would have to admit, I think we have pretty much the right balance over here in the UK. Sure, religion isn't taught in schools the way I would like, but we don't have puritanical laws banning music, films, and video games that christians find offensive. We don't have laws banning homosexuality, just because christians find it offensive, like they do in some parts of the states.

DissolveD_JameS · 3rd August 2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by humndislocation

I would have to admit, I think we have pretty much the right balance over here in the UK. Sure, religion isn't taught in schools the way I would like, but we don't have puritanical laws banning music, films, and video games that christians find offensive. We don't have laws banning homosexuality, just because christians find it offensive, like they do in some parts of the states.

This is a good point indeed.

Mostly, what I don't like is the misuse of christianity. People who are "proud christians" who will argue that homosexuality is wrong because it is not what god intended. Then they will abuse someone for being gay (verbally or physically) - clearly adopting none of the positive christian values like compassion or forgiveness.

1st August 2005, 03:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
graham enzk Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: back in the day Posts: 2,747 Band: condition21, ultramegaholocausticwhi rlwindzombiedeathsquad , utter fucking hate, distorted noise, tin pot hippies, spiteful	Religion itself is the fount of most evil Religion itself is the fount of most evil Muriel Gray argues that it’s all very well blaming fundamentalism, but religion itself is at the core of the world’s problems. It’s time for us to free ourselves from its shackles and draw a clear line between all churches and the state What’s the definition of a Conservative? A liberal who’s been mugged. I’ve kept this gag close over the last few weeks, lodging it as a reminder that immediate responses to the London nightmare are unlikely to be reasonable or helpful. But it’s been hard. As the body parts of the murdered commuters were being bagged, and Iraqi children were blown apart for taking sweets from an American soldier, I sat by our daughter’s intensive care bed where, for the second time during her regrettably eventful 10 years, medical geniuses had saved her life. A pair of surgeons who shame Michelangelo with sculpting skills in flesh and bone, an anaesthetist possessed of the magic to rekindle glowing embers of life back into flame, and a team of tireless doctors and nurses grafted and toiled or her behalf in the sweltering temperatures of the Edinburgh heatwave, and then carried on grafting and toiling on behalf of all the other tiny mites and scraps of existence passing through their care. It was impossible, while sitting reading the news in the pallid gloom of a ward silent save for ventilators breathing and heart monitors bleeping, not to make the sentimental juxtaposition of those who work so hard to fix broken human beings and those who work hard at breaking them. The difficulty was keeping not just tears, but hatred at bay. But thankfully it has come to a head. As the news broke of the suspected bomber shot dead in the London Underground, a revolting emotion bubbled to the surface like marsh gas, that of exultation in revenge. It whispered: “Take that you murdering sod.” It was the dark shame of having felt such a primitive tug that served the reminder not to be the mugged liberal, and even before we learned of the man’s innocence, the unconditional love of my fellow man was thankfully rebooted. That dead man was once someone’s darling baby boy, a bouncing, burbling bundle with all the pieces in place to delight in life. He is yet another victim now; murdered in error as a direct result of the insane, murderous, repugnant fascist philosophy that is driving young men across the globe to tear their own flesh apart alongside their victims. Everyone is being blamed, from the obvious villainous duo of George W Bush and Tony Blair, to the inaction of Muslim “communities”. But it has never been clearer that there is only one place to lay the blame and it has ever been thus. The cause of all this misery, mayhem, violence, terror and ignorance is of course religion itself, and if it seems ludicrous to have to state such an obvious reality, the fact is that the government and the media are doing a pretty good job of pretending that it isn’t so. Bush’s fundamentalist Christian insanity seems temporarily forgotten, and there is much talk of moderate Islam as if this is a jolly good thing, when in fact, in tandem with all other world religions, very much including Bush’s, it is a Dark Ages nonsense that should, of course, be tolerated and its adherents protected and permitted to practice it peacefully, but falls a very long way from meriting respect. The age of enlightenment freed reasoning humans from the shackles of crudely hewn anthropomorphic gods, leaving these man-made deities to serve those who wished to keep them alive for the purposes of comforting self-delusion, social control – particularly the control of women – and the validation of power, violence and aggression. For the government of a secular country such as ours to treat religion as if it had real merit instead of regarding it as a ridiculous anachronism, which education, wisdom and experience can hopefully overcome in time, is one of the most depressing developments of the 21st century. Religious people must be treated with the same respect as non-religious people, but their religions should quite properly be regarded with the weary contempt they deserve. Instead we have debates on TV news shows between hardline Muslim scholars and moderate Muslim politicians without any intervening voice of scepticism suggesting that the whole darned thing might be just as invented as virgin births and Mormon tablets. We have bishops arguing with Christian women about ordination as if this is an important issue, again without the obvious interjection that it is unlikely in the extreme that there exists any god at all, never mind a peculiar one who cares what sex wears the cassock. And there goes old nutty Ruth Kelly using taxpayers’ money to introduce a whole new clutch of assorted religious schools that will abuse the innocence of trusting children by teaching them superstition alongside facts to ensure they cannot separate the two. The defence of any attacked faith is always to say: “You don’t understand our religion.” It’s considerably more likely that those defenders of their rrational beliefs have failed to understand Montesquieu, Hume, Rousseau and Diderot. The tattooed drunken morons attending an Orange walk are hardly theologians. Since these are dark days, it’s time to stop all this polite tiptoeing around religion and harden up accordingly. Our elected leaders constantly bleating their respect for religion is not political correctness but a public declaration that intellect, tolerance, democracy, reason and enlightenment are of less value than dogma and delusion. Now’s the moment for a clear, definite, distinct line to be drawn between state and religion, one that defends the individual’s right to follow whatever ideology he or she wishes within the law, but also firmly declares and vigorously defends our collective ideals of gender equality, respect for differing sexual orientations and reinforces the message that there is no room whatsoever for the supernatural and the irrational. No bishops, mullahs, Presbyterian ministers, rabbis, or Scientologists should be gifted special hearings at Downing Street, but should confine themselves to wielding their power and freedom as the rest of us do, namely as ordinary voters, and the state-funded faith schools that shame us all with their manipulation of young minds must cease. We have all been mugged, but the shock must take us back to reason and as far away from religion as we can get. 24 July 2005 fairly interesting article. __________________ ENZK zine - over 1500 photos of bands you don't like. Also interviews, reviews and crap. condition21- Short! Fast! Crap! Tinned Tomatoes- My better half's veggie recipe blog

2nd August 2005, 11:16 AM	#6 (permalink)
graham enzk Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: back in the day Posts: 2,747 Band: condition21, ultramegaholocausticwhi rlwindzombiedeathsquad , utter fucking hate, distorted noise, tin pot hippies, spiteful	i think their point that religion should not have such a sway over political decisions is a good one. complete and definite seperation of church and state. religion should be something for yourself not something used to manipulate others and to secure powers and wealth. __________________ ENZK zine - over 1500 photos of bands you don't like. Also interviews, reviews and crap. condition21- Short! Fast! Crap! Tinned Tomatoes- My better half's veggie recipe blog

1st August 2005, 04:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
DissolveD_JameS Restrained Abuser Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Dundee Posts: 1,252 Band: Dissolved	This does look interesting, I will read it after work.

1st August 2005, 09:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
Hecate Don Kate (UGS Mafia) Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: somewhere Posts: 2,478 Band: Vulsellum	Good article, straight to the heart of the matter

1st August 2005, 10:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
deadmike Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: in a pub Posts: 592	load of rubbish. "i dont believe in religion therefore i think its bad and should be attacked". lets just forget about the core messages of most religions being peace and love. also lets just ignore the countless efforts most religions do for charity. a completely one sided, single minded attack with absolutely no scope for the "full story" this reads like something from michael moore. yeah religions really really bad and evil, satanism? quite good for you. he was a twisted bugger my dad....

1st August 2005, 11:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
Chunder Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: 今治、えひめ、日本 Posts: 392	Yeah its also totally and completely western in its beliefs. 'the worlds religions'.... How does any of what has been written apply to pantheists, for which there are a sizeable number of in the world? Japan is a pantheistic nation, for example. They are born shinto or christian, married shinto or christian (often the opposite of what they were born), there buddhist when they die... There cool in believing any religion they want and take what they want from each religion. Im sure theres other countries like this too, maybe China and Korea... People seem to forget often that this side of the world exists because the media focuses so much on the middle east/europe/america world issues. Im sure theres also huge amounts of individuals who are pantheistic. The article is way too full of emotional rhetoric too, with not much in the way of facts or backup, yet claims something as strong as 'religion is the root of all evil'. I think I managed to give up such pointless beliefs when I was about 18... Its like drugs... Drugs aint the problem, its the people that use them.... Same can be said about religion. Too many people in the world not prepared to think for themselves and too many people using religion to manipulate them. 'Manipulation of young minds'... Well Im sorry, but too many people are victims of their own design. My (crude, overgeneralised) 2 cents.....

2nd August 2005, 03:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
DissolveD_JameS Restrained Abuser Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Dundee Posts: 1,252 Band: Dissolved	Goddammit. I forgot about this thread after work lastnight. I'll try and remember to read it tonight.

3rd August 2005, 09:26 PM	#13 (permalink)
Hecate Don Kate (UGS Mafia) Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: somewhere Posts: 2,478 Band: Vulsellum