Muslim women wearing the niqab.

The_Mechanix · 22nd October 2006, 02:48 AM

I agree with the council in england saying Aishah Azmi should remove her veil while teaching young students, and i also agree that its just manners to be able to see somebodys face while speaking to them given that less than 10 percent of communication is through speaking. Now there are people wanting the government to introduce legislation to ban the veil in public. I must admit i dont trust people who follow their religion to the point that they arent allowed to mix with other people be they other sexes, other races or or factions of their own religions (yes i am talking about the over-the-top catholics and protestants) but surely in a democratic society they have the right to practise their religion any way they choose as long as theyre not infringing other peoples rights.

Does anybody else think this whole thing is being blown way out of all bloody proportion? Possibly even giving the BNP something to gain support with?

edit: i know there arent allowed to be any threads mentioning the bnp but i hope im making a point here.

humndislocation · 22nd October 2006, 10:47 AM

Yeah I'm not sure where I stand on this. On one hand I do agree that the veil can hinder integration into communities. In this society, being able to see someones face is generally quite important when developing a bond with them.
I also think, that the muslim community has overreacted yet again, to something completely benign. Jack Straw did not say that women should be forced to take off the veil.

I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole teacher wearing a veil issue, but I will say one thing. I don't see why we should respect someones convictions on something, just because it happens to be religious. Why should religious convictions be more important than any other, and have special exceptions made for it? An ardent communist for example, is probably as strong in his views and beliefs as a muslim is about theirs? If muslims are allowed to wear a veil in class, then why shouldn't the communist be allowed to wear a Che Guevarra t-shirt? Why should choices instantly become more important because there's a religion attached to them?

On the other hand, I don't think wearing the veil should be banned.

RiseAgainst · 22nd October 2006, 10:51 AM

i dont believe it should be banned, or to be forced to be removed during classroom. what lessons was she teaching?

but yet again there has been as pointed out above, an OTT reaction to the whole situation. i think the muslim community could be creating a bigger divide with them and the society they wish to intergrate with by making conflicts with their culture and ours.

The_Mechanix · 22nd October 2006, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiseAgainst

i dont believe it should be banned, or to be forced to be removed during classroom. what lessons was she teaching?

she was teaching an early primary class which in my opinion need to see the face as they are just really learning to communicate.

RiseAgainst · 22nd October 2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Mechanix

she was teaching an early primary class which in my opinion need to see the face as they are just really learning to communicate.

thats a pretty valid point, some kids may even be scared of the appearance of her if they arent very aware of the culture which id be suprised if many of them are.

what if one of the kids pulls it off thinking they are playing with her?

Tommy Sports · 22nd October 2006, 02:57 PM

If kid's aren't allowed to wear hoodies in shopping centres why should someone be allowed to cover their entire face because of religious reasons?
Personally i think its disrespectful on the part of Aishah Azmi more than anyone asking her to take off her veil. A primary school teacher's main concern should be that of the development of the kids being taught, i'm sure allah wouldn't smite her for showing them her face. I have no problem with muslim women dressing however they want, but if she was working in a factory or a kitchen or somewhere with stringent health and safety requirements she'd have to dress a certain way, why should teaching be any different? I'd have been pretty nervous if i never got to see my teachers face when i was 5. I also think that such overt religious symbolism should be kept away from schools that are non specific religiously.

RiseAgainst · 22nd October 2006, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryter_layter

If kid's aren't allowed to wear hoodies in shopping centres why should someone be allowed to cover their entire face because of religious reasons?
Personally i think its disrespectful on the part of Aishah Azmi more than anyone asking her to take off her veil. A primary school teacher's main concern should be that of the development of the kids being taught, i'm sure allah wouldn't smite her for showing them her face. I have no problem with muslim women dressing however they want, but if she was working in a factory or a kitchen or somewhere with stringent health and safety requirements she'd have to dress a certain way, why should teaching be any different? I'd have been pretty nervous if i never got to see my teachers face when i was 5. I also think that such overt religious symbolism should be kept away from schools that are non specific religiously.

you cant teach religion in state schools so how do they explain it to the chldren without explaining the siginificance of it within the persons religion.

Rebelius · 22nd October 2006, 03:00 PM

should loyalist teachers be allowed to teach in ski-masks?

RiseAgainst · 22nd October 2006, 03:03 PM

curious, see if you go into a bank and they have the "remove crash helmets please" sign, can you walk in wearing the veil?

gabrillowise · 22nd October 2006, 03:14 PM

A christian teacher recently got sacked for not covering up the small crucifix she was wearing around her neck, and I don't understand why issue with the veils is being tiptoed around. Children need faces, take it off for their sake.

kj · 22nd October 2006, 05:30 PM

There are so many arguments. I personally think that she should be allowed to wear the veil. Remember the veil is different from the hijab. People are always complaining about how people need to integrate, yet here is a muslim woman teaching british children, is that not a degree of integration? This woman is not hiding from anything, she's not an extremist and from what I heard the children had to problems with communications, it was down to protocol.

I totally agree though that in order to communicate effectively she needs to have her face shown. Lets also remember that when applying for jobs when asked about her religion she would always disclose the fact that she wore a veil but in this particular instance the school concerned didn't actually ask her about the veil until she had been given the job and began teaching at the school.

I'm not an expert on Islam nor it's traditions but i'm pretty sure the veil is to hide a womans face from a man... she offered to take the veil off in class but said she would have to put it back on should a male member of staff enter her classroom.

RiseAgainst · 22nd October 2006, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kj

I'm not an expert on Islam nor it's traditions but i'm pretty sure the veil is to hide a womans face from a man... she offered to take the veil off in class but said she would have to put it back on should a male member of staff enter her classroom.

if that is the case, where is the problem?
i am the same in that i dont know the actual cultural reasons for the head dress but if she is willing to do that then surely that stops all arguments for it?

The_Mechanix · 22nd October 2006, 05:38 PM

one thing that i dont really understand is that dundees muslim community is quite large but ive never seen anybody wearing a veil yet when my dad lived in leicester and i went to visit for a month i saw 2 asian women without a veil the whole time i was there. anybody have an clue as to why that is?

22nd October 2006, 02:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
The_Mechanix Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Scumdee Posts: 163	Muslim women wearing the niqab. I agree with the council in england saying Aishah Azmi should remove her veil while teaching young students, and i also agree that its just manners to be able to see somebodys face while speaking to them given that less than 10 percent of communication is through speaking. Now there are people wanting the government to introduce legislation to ban the veil in public. I must admit i dont trust people who follow their religion to the point that they arent allowed to mix with other people be they other sexes, other races or or factions of their own religions (yes i am talking about the over-the-top catholics and protestants) but surely in a democratic society they have the right to practise their religion any way they choose as long as theyre not infringing other peoples rights. Does anybody else think this whole thing is being blown way out of all bloody proportion? Possibly even giving the BNP something to gain support with? edit: i know there arent allowed to be any threads mentioning the bnp but i hope im making a point here. Last edited by The_Mechanix : 22nd October 2006 at 02:52 AM. Reason: adding a wee disclaimer to protect myself. ;)

22nd October 2006, 10:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
RiseAgainst rambling boy of pleasure Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Stoke-On-Trent Posts: 3,456 Band: bandless :(	i dont believe it should be banned, or to be forced to be removed during classroom. what lessons was she teaching? but yet again there has been as pointed out above, an OTT reaction to the whole situation. i think the muslim community could be creating a bigger divide with them and the society they wish to intergrate with by making conflicts with their culture and ours. Last edited by RiseAgainst : 22nd October 2006 at 11:08 AM.

22nd October 2006, 05:30 PM	#11 (permalink)
kj gimp Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 14,227 Band: A band of merry men	There are so many arguments. I personally think that she should be allowed to wear the veil. Remember the veil is different from the hijab. People are always complaining about how people need to integrate, yet here is a muslim woman teaching british children, is that not a degree of integration? This woman is not hiding from anything, she's not an extremist and from what I heard the children had to problems with communications, it was down to protocol. I totally agree though that in order to communicate effectively she needs to have her face shown. Lets also remember that when applying for jobs when asked about her religion she would always disclose the fact that she wore a veil but in this particular instance the school concerned didn't actually ask her about the veil until she had been given the job and began teaching at the school. I'm not an expert on Islam nor it's traditions but i'm pretty sure the veil is to hide a womans face from a man... she offered to take the veil off in class but said she would have to put it back on should a male member of staff enter her classroom. __________________ This community cannot survive without your continued support. galleries \|\| links directory \|\| profiles \|\| wiki

22nd October 2006, 10:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
humndislocation Hardcore is serious guys Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dundee Posts: 6,009 Band: Blasphemous Necrorapist	Yeah I'm not sure where I stand on this. On one hand I do agree that the veil can hinder integration into communities. In this society, being able to see someones face is generally quite important when developing a bond with them. I also think, that the muslim community has overreacted yet again, to something completely benign. Jack Straw did not say that women should be forced to take off the veil. I'm not really sure where I stand on the whole teacher wearing a veil issue, but I will say one thing. I don't see why we should respect someones convictions on something, just because it happens to be religious. Why should religious convictions be more important than any other, and have special exceptions made for it? An ardent communist for example, is probably as strong in his views and beliefs as a muslim is about theirs? If muslims are allowed to wear a veil in class, then why shouldn't the communist be allowed to wear a Che Guevarra t-shirt? Why should choices instantly become more important because there's a religion attached to them? On the other hand, I don't think wearing the veil should be banned.

22nd October 2006, 02:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
Tommy Sports Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,673 Band: Juliet Kilo R.I.P., Gong Fei, Dormant Figure.	If kid's aren't allowed to wear hoodies in shopping centres why should someone be allowed to cover their entire face because of religious reasons? Personally i think its disrespectful on the part of Aishah Azmi more than anyone asking her to take off her veil. A primary school teacher's main concern should be that of the development of the kids being taught, i'm sure allah wouldn't smite her for showing them her face. I have no problem with muslim women dressing however they want, but if she was working in a factory or a kitchen or somewhere with stringent health and safety requirements she'd have to dress a certain way, why should teaching be any different? I'd have been pretty nervous if i never got to see my teachers face when i was 5. I also think that such overt religious symbolism should be kept away from schools that are non specific religiously.

22nd October 2006, 03:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
Rebelius Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 7,220	should loyalist teachers be allowed to teach in ski-masks?

22nd October 2006, 03:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
RiseAgainst rambling boy of pleasure Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Stoke-On-Trent Posts: 3,456 Band: bandless :(	curious, see if you go into a bank and they have the "remove crash helmets please" sign, can you walk in wearing the veil?

22nd October 2006, 03:14 PM	#10 (permalink)
gabrillowise Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: the forest haven Posts: 2,060	A christian teacher recently got sacked for not covering up the small crucifix she was wearing around her neck, and I don't understand why issue with the veils is being tiptoed around. Children need faces, take it off for their sake.

22nd October 2006, 05:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
The_Mechanix Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Scumdee Posts: 163	one thing that i dont really understand is that dundees muslim community is quite large but ive never seen anybody wearing a veil yet when my dad lived in leicester and i went to visit for a month i saw 2 asian women without a veil the whole time i was there. anybody have an clue as to why that is?