The non-thinking that is Religion.

[Hecate]

I think what I said shows that you cannot fully discount spiritual matters, which is Alex's standpoint.
You can say that you don't believe personally in it existing, but to call people stupid, lesser beings and ignorant for accepting it is possible, and "its time to pack up and go home" is quite honestly, ludicrous and extremely, offensively, arrogant!

[Jeebus]

I find it hard to believe that a man I have argued with in the past about the whether or not a tree falling over in the woods makes any noise is no-one is around to hear it has such faith in science. I kind of agree with the main thrust of Alex's argument, just not with the way he is going about it.

[LesMts]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

I think what I said shows that you cannot fully discount spiritual matters, which is Alex's standpoint.
You can say that you don't believe personally in it existing, but to call people stupid, lesser beings and ignorant for accepting it is possible, and "its time to pack up and go home" is quite honestly, ludicrous and extremely, offensively, arrogant!

What you said shows that you can't fully discount anything. Which is useless. It tells us nothing about reality. It's an impotent point of argument.
I won't deny anyone their right to believe in whatever takes their fancy but, as a scientist, when justifying my beliefs I have to have a reason, something that tells me, yes, this is worth my time.
What you're giving is a poor excuse for avoiding giving a reason.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by LesMts

What you said shows that you can't fully discount anything. Which is useless. It tells us nothing about reality. It's an impotent point of argument.
I won't deny anyone their right to believe in whatever takes their fancy but, as a scientist, when justifying my beliefs I have to have a reason, something that tells me, yes, this is worth my time.
What you're giving is a poor excuse for avoiding giving a reason.

Why? I don't need to justify what I am saying and think to anyone!
And what time are you talking about? My time spent meditating is absoloutely worth every second, believe me.

I am glad you are a fully-fledged scientist, I have a Bsc in biological sciences, gained nonetheless over 10 years ago and my memory of it all is therefore not as good as it used to be, but I do try to keep up as much as possible.

I, however, don't see myself as a scientist, but just me, the human, encompassing all my life's experiences.

I don't believe in god nor do I believe any religious text is worth dedicating your own behaviour to, but do not discount the possibility, which as a scientist you can't either, you can only talk in probabilities.
You can infer things from those probabilities, and that is fine, but you cannot 100% discount something, although that happens in science all the time in order to progress theories.

I should add, that belief in something spiritual does not make someone a creationist. Creationism is ridiculous, and should never be taught in science.

[DissolveD_JameS]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

All in all I think that is one of the most meaningless posts I've ever read.

There was no meaning intended, I'm just sharing my thoughts. If I had published a book stating my thoughts as facts, then having you pick holes in it would be fair enough. I didn't. I think perhaps you've got a little carried away with this thread, it may be of great importance to you, but for me it's just another subject I have contemplated before and wish to share ideas about with other people. I wasn't making a series of valid arguments, I was just trying to explain my feelings on it.

Everything I said was true... to me. I don't expect anyone to fully understand it because I rarely think in words - I just wanted to share because I believe the more perspectives on any one subject the better. Not once did I try to pass off any of my thoughts as a fact or say anyone else's were false, yet you seem intent on trying to prove it wrong with things that are true... to you.

As far as it goes for a fair discussion / philosophy / debate / whatever - you get no credit from me, if you can't accept that you don't know everything then theres no point in attempting to share with others. I believe sharing is mutual - it doesn't work if someone takes the "I am right and you are wrong" approach.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by LesMts

Paradigm shifts or dramatic changes in science rarely happen and when they do happen it is almost always through slow accumulation of data which challenges certain axioms. It doesn't tend to happen suddenly.

I didn't say they happened suddenly. Where did you get that idea from? I think you are just being patronising for the hell of it.

[Thee Alex]

Being 'spiritual' is just as much non-thinking as religion. That anyone, in this day and age, can believe in any form of the supernatural is incredible to me.

I fully expect, over time, that everything will have a rational, scientific explanation. If I saw a ghost tonight I wouldn't start believing in the supernatural, but I would believe I had witnessed something that will eventually be explained by science and reason.

[LesMts]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

Why? I don't need to justify what I am saying and think to anyone!
And what time are you talking about? My time spent meditating is absoloutely worth every second, believe me.

I am glad you are a fully-fledged scientist, I have a Bsc in biological sciences, gained nonetheless over 10 years ago and my memory of it all is therefore not as good as it used to be, but I do try to keep up as much as possible.

I, however, don't see myself as a scientist, but just me, the human, encompassing all my life's experiences.

I don't believe in god nor do I believe any religious text is worth dedicating your own behaviour to, but do not discount the possibility, which as a scientist you can't either, you can only talk in probabilities.
You can infer things from those probabilities, and that is fine, but you cannot 100% discount something, although that happens in science all the time in order to progress theories.

Officially, I'm a scientist in training but I would describe myself as a scientist in the same way someone might describe themself as a socialist or a christian, in that the scientific method is at the forefront of the way I view the world.
Anyway, I'm not demanding that you justify your beliefs, just saying that "well, we can't know what will be discovered in the future" is justification for nothing. I feel a responsibility to myself to justify the things I hold to be true or very likely to be true. I don't think that everyone should be the same, though.
I'm sure meditating is worth every second for you, I wouldn't be of the opinion that this is due to anything supernatural or otherworldly or spiritual. I'd say there is likely a sound neurological and physiological reason for the calming effect. That's just my opinion.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by DissolveD_JameS

There was no meaning intended, I'm just sharing my thoughts. If I had published a book stating my thoughts as facts, then having you pick holes in it would be fair enough. I didn't. I think perhaps you've got a little carried away with this thread, it may be of great importance to you, but for me it's just another subject I have contemplated before and wish to share ideas about with other people. I wasn't making a series of valid arguments, I was just trying to explain my feelings on it.

Everything I said was true... to me. I don't expect anyone to fully understand it because I rarely think in words - I just wanted to share because I believe the more perspectives on any one subject the better. Not once did I try to pass off any of my thoughts as a fact or say anyone else's were false, yet you seem intent on trying to prove it wrong with things that are true... to you.

As far as it goes for a fair discussion / philosophy / debate / whatever - you get no credit from me, if you can't accept that you don't know everything then theres no point in attempting to share with others. I believe sharing is mutual - it doesn't work if someone takes the "I am right and you are wrong" approach.

Yeah, but James, you contributed exactly nothing to the debate. 'I think this, but then again I don't' isn't any use to anyone.

Are you made out of a wisp of smoke?

[LesMts]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

I didn't say they happened suddenly. Where did you get that idea from? I think you are just being patronising for the hell of it.

I wasn't trying to be patronising. Sorry if that's how it came across.
I just got the impression that you were saying there'd been massive advances in science, which of course there have, but this isn't the full story....these have been made in tiny, careful increments, not massive leaps.
Sorry if I offended or misunderstood, I've had a few beers.

[DissolveD_JameS]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

I fully expect, over time, that everything will have a rational, scientific explanation. If I saw a ghost tonight I wouldn't start believing in the supernatural, but I would believe I had witnessed something that will eventually be explained by science and reason.

imFUCKINo


The supernatural and science do not have to be different things in the long run. If you saw a ghost tonight, that is supernatural until it gets explained by science.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Yeah, but James, you contributed exactly nothing to the debate. 'I think this, but then again I don't' isn't any use to anyone.

Are you made out of a wisp of smoke?

That's bollocks! In your narrow-minded opinion he didn't, but I am interested in what James has to say, as I'm sure the majority of people involved in this debate are. That is what a debate is for, to share thoughts and ideas and personal opinions.