The non-thinking that is Religion.

[Keerin]

Sorry, at this stage I actually have nothing to add, I just wanted to say that It is interesting that this has encompassed evolution, sociology and philosophy! From what I gather Alex has faith in science (which is not so blind as sciene has explained many things in the past) and disagrees with those who have blind faith in things.

While I agree with what Alex has been saying, I wouldn't have said it in the manner in which he has. But then again the thread wouldn't have been as interesting!

I agree that science has explained a lot of things and reasons for belief in a religion, deity or spirituality has waned and I guess this is where Alex is coming from. I personally am not going to sit on the fence. I would say I was with Alex on this one. I have faith that everything will eventually be explained by science. As Alan G just said, Religion was used to explain the weather, illness, social problems, crop growth etc etc but now we know how to predict the weather, can diagnose most illnesses, understand most, if not all social problems and science has taken the mystery out of crop growing for farmers. To further Alex's point, indiginous tribes in Papa New Guinea still worship a god and in general, they are seen as being not as advanced as us. Is this because they do not have science to explain things?

[RiseAgainst]

The sun was super natural in early times, as was eclipses. People would dance so a god would give them rain, surely that makes that belief that rain would be beyond natural means (or to quote latin - super natural)

In fact im pretty sure there are people today who still believe an eclipse is super natural, yet we know this to be false.

To expect us to be unable to explain any events which occur within the natural world is basically not having faith in Science. in which point, it could be argued that by believing we can explain everything with Science is almost treating it like a religion.

Everything happens for a reason, just because you dont know the reason, doesnt make the reason any less real.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by RiseAgainst

Everything happens for a reason, just because you dont know the reason, doesnt make the reason any less real.

You're spot on here, which is why I'm a little confused by the the following...

Originally Posted by RiseAgainst

The sun was super natural in early times, as was eclipses.

It wasn't though, just because we didn't understand it didn't mean it was supernatural....it was always a super-hot practically endless nuclear reaction in the centre of the solar system.

Something can't be 'supernatural' and then become 'natural' based purely upon our increased understanding of it. This is a point Kate seems to be having extreme problems comprehending.

As for those of you claiming I have 'faith' in science.....that's a load of rubbish. If something is evidently real you don't need to 'believe' in it or have 'faith' in it - it just *is*.

For example, I don't 'believe' in the sky, I don't need to waste any energy on that as I can see it. Likewise I can see the world around me and understand that reality, no matter how complex and (in some cases bizarre) just is. It exists, it's existence is self-evident so I don't have to have 'faith' in it.

'Faith' is not something that any rational mind should have to waste time on.

[RiseAgainst]

what i meant was most of the world believe it to be super natural, based on the fact they didnt know what it was. i think someone said that nobody had ever though the sun was super natural or something...id read about 30 posts before replying so it maybe lost in translation

it was basically trying to add to my point of to not know the reason for something occuring and just passing it off as "i dont know, so it must be super natural" is just lazy.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by RiseAgainst

"i dont know, so it must be super natural" is just lazy.

Couldn't agree more.

[LesMts]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

Also from Wikipedia (cheers for the pointer Alex!);
"Supernatural is also a classification for explanations which invoke explanative contructs that in principle are beyond human conception, understanding or verification."

That's no counterpoint. All that quote is saying is that if someone explains something in such a way that the explanation is unable to be tested or verified, i.e. is outside of nature, then we classify those explanations as "supernatural". People can give supernatural explanations for entirely natural phenomena.

You keep coming back to this point of "how do we know the existence of God won't be verified satisfactorily in the future". Well, the answer to that is that we don't. BUT this is an impotent point. How do we know that ANY wild idea won't be verified in the future? We don't.
God was a supernatural explanation invented to explain a number of natural phenomena. The majority of which we now understand perfectly.
It's not that I'm arguing God does not exist, is 100% false, will definitely never be shown to exist....no-one can say that. It defies basic principles of reasoning and I've said so several times before in this thread.
What I can say, and this is at the centre of my belief system, is that I have no good reason to believe that God does exist. Just like I have no good reason to believe that the soul, pixies, fairies, unicorns, magic-spells, chi, crystal-power, homeopathy etc etc exist.
If we went around believing in everything, or entertaining the idea of everything, that MIGHT exist we'd get pretty confused pretty quickly.

[LesMts]

Anyway, the subject has already been covered and the issue closed by MC Hawking in his sockdolager of a song "Fuck the Creationists"....

Fuck The Creationists

Trash Talk
Ah yeah, here we go again!
Damn! This is some funky shit that I be laying down on your ass.
This one goes out to all my homey's working in the field of
evolutionary science.
Check it!

Verse 1
Fuck the damn creationists, those bunch of dumb-ass bitches,
every time I think of them my trigger finger itches.
They want to have their bullshit, taught in public class,
Stephen J. Gould should put his foot right up their ass.
Noah and his ark, Adam and his Eve,
straight up fairy stories even children don't believe.
I'm not saying there's no god, that's not for me to say,
all I'm saying is the Earth was not made in a day.

Chorus
Fuck, fuck, fuck,
fuck the Creationists.

Trash Talk
Break it down.
Ah damn, this is a funky jam!
I'm about ready to kick this bitch back in.
Check it.

Verse 2
Fuck the damn creationists I say it with authority,
because kicking their punk asses be me paramount priority.
Them wack-ass bitches say, "evolution's just a theory",
they best step off, them brainless fools, I'll give them cause to fear me.
The cosmos is expanding every second, every day,
but their minds are shrinking as they close their eyes and pray.
They call their bullshit science like the word could give them cred,
if them bitches be scientists then cap me in the head.

Chorus

Trash Talk
Bass!
Bring that shit in!
Ah yeah, that's right, fuck them all motherfuckers.
Fucking punk ass creationists trying to set scientific thought back 400 years.
Fuck that!
If them superstitious motherfuckers want to have that kind of party,
I'm going to put my dick in the mashed potatoes.
Fucking creationists.
Fuck them.

[humndislocation]

Originally Posted by LesMts

It's not that I'm arguing God does not exist, is 100% false, will definitely never be shown to exist....no-one can say that. It defies basic principles of reasoning and I've said so several times before in this thread.
What I can say, and this is at the centre of my belief system, is that I have no good reason to believe that God does exist. Just like I have no good reason to believe that the soul, pixies, fairies, unicorns, magic-spells, chi, crystal-power, homeopathy etc etc exist.
If we went around believing in everything, or entertaining the idea of everything, that MIGHT exist we'd get pretty confused pretty quickly.

Exactly. Just because two alternatives could be possible, doesn't make them equally likely to be true.

You can't say 100% that evidence for a god will never be found. You can say however, that you believe that the evidence for a god's existence is currently extremely lacking, and that you believe it to be massively improbable that evidence will ever be found.

I am open to the possibility that a god exists, but only to the same extent that I am open to the possibility that fairies exist.

Saying that god doesn't exist, and that belief in god is silly, is no different to saying the exact same thing about fairies.

[Pubic Wig]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

You still haven't told me why you believe.....I'm genuinely interested.

Ok, as for the why.
Why not?

I truthfuly could not tell you why I beleive. My reasons for accepting and gaining faith are my own and deeply personal, not something i share on online forums, most of my close friends dont know as i am loath to force my beleifs onto them.

I have made a choice to accept my faith. By any standards i am indeed a terrible Christian and i openly condem the church for its general intolerance, dogmatic approach, closed minded veiws and contadictory stance on...well, pretty much everything.

My faith stems from a beleif that there is far more to the world, life and the universe than we can possibly ever hope to know or understand or comprehend. Oh yes, i certainly agree that science can and will provide answers to many of the questions we ask, but i cannot know this for fact. Just as i cannot know that there is a God for a fact.

But i stand by my beliefs. I beleive in good and in evil. Can science justify why one man will kill another whilst another would never consider it? In parts of the science community there is talk of an 'evil gene' found in serial killers and career criminals but theres not a shred of evidence.

Social backgrounds, economic pressure, a difficult upbringing - these are all often reasons that lead towards acts of wantom cruelty and evil, but you will find that what one person does is not the same as another.
I beleive in the knowledge of good and evil and that humankind also have a free choice to make their own decisions about such things.

My faith is that yes, there is both a benevelant and malevelant force that we cannot control nor explain. Perhaps my faith merely stems from the idea that Jesus preached of tolerance, mutual respect and forgivness.

I could be wrong, i possibly am wrong. As we have gone through many times already there is a distinct lack of evidence to back any claims i might make. which is why i keep my own faith to myself. One shouldnt try and force a belief on someone without the means to proove it. Many Christians would say this is a bad stance to have and that it is my moral duty as a Christian to convert others.
I think this is wrong. I think a person has free choice. If somone wants to know more then i would say to them faith is a voyage of self discovery and point 'em to a bible as a starting point.

*sigh* im sorry i know that is not a well defined answer that you would like to break apart and shoot down every way that you can but there it is.

I have faith because i choose to have faith. Thats what faith is, a choice.

I know anyone can say "i beleive in Santa Clause or the Force because i choose to" just as easily but thats it for me. Do i need to justify my faith? Not to anyone but myself.

[Thee Alex]

It seems to me that rational thought is slowly 'winning' this argument.

[Pubic Wig]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

It seems to me that rational thought is slowly 'winning' this argument.

oh bollocks, people have tried to 'win this argument' for hundreds of years. Sorry mate but none of us is going to come out on top here. Its an endless cycle that ill just continue and continue.

[Thee Alex]