The non-thinking that is Religion.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by RiseAgainst

im pretty amused at the thought of Hitler swishing around doing that every morning...

does anyone commiting an evil act really thing "im so evil mwhahaha"

nah, because at the time, their thought process is that it is correct...not because of some notion they have evil installed at birth.

I dunno, I think the guy who is breaking into a granny's flat inherently knows that raping her is not good.

[Pubic Wig]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Because there is a very high chance that it's not true? That you're wasting your time? Why is the onus of proof always put on science whilst the 'believer' can say 'it's true because it is' or answer 'why not?' to the question 'Why do you believe?'

Is that not a sign then that you should question that belief? You believe something but you don't know why? Blind faith anyone?

But Jesus himself commanded his follows to tell the world about him. Surely you're letting down Jesus by NOT explaining your faith to all around you? Don't you want your friends to be 'saved'?

But you don't seem to actually know what your faith is in!

So you are rational enough to see that the church (whichever sect) is preaching a lot of hateful rubbish.....yet you still don't question it??

If you have faith you should believe that the existence of 'God' is a fact. That's what your faith is there for.

Based on what evidence? I think you'll find that the world is far more complex than your reductionist thinking will allow.

Some people have a less developed sense of guilt or repercussion, there are usually psychological reasons. To talk about an 'evil' gene is just quasi-Intelligent Design guff.

Are you saying that an atheist society wouldn't have that knowledge? It can be convincingly argued that natural selection/survival of the fittest works when applied to social groupings as well. The tribe that doesn't murder, steal or kidnap survives longer than the one that sees nothing wrong with those 'crimes'. Over millennia a basic sense of 'right and wrong' evolves just as surely as the ability to walk upright.

That is a huge cop-out and denies the power of humanity. The 'God/Satan told me to do it' explanation is useless. People and not some supernatural being are responsible for their actions - if one does something good then they should feel good about it, if they do something bad they cannot go blaming some red horned fellow when they're, in fact, just a dick.

Then you are directly disobeying the very Messiah you believe in. I would seriously question whether you should be pointing anyone at the Bible.

If you believe your Bible then you're going to have to justify your selection of what to and not to believe to 'God' come judgement day.

Still, as you believe in 'him' and I don't, that's your problem.

*bangs head agaisnt wall*

Do you seriously not see what you re trying to do?
You are trying and failing miserably to make me doubt my convictions, weak as they may seem to you. I am a rational person, i accept i may be wrong in my beliefs but i CHOOSE to have that faith.

Yes i bloody well have doubts. You havnt said anything remotly new to me that i havnt considered for far longer than this thread has been running and will have doubts all my life. I question things.

Jesus also said not to deny him. Have i truely denied him? If i had i wouldnt have responded as much as i have on this thread.
This is something i dont like talking about much because as i have many many times said, Faith is a persons own choice. You yourself have faith that science will eventualy answer EVERYTHING yet you have no proo0f because you are not all knowing and all seeing.

I dont go out preaching that i am right and everyone who doesnt beleive me will burn in Hell because thats a horrible horrible thing to do. Faith is a choice as i have said and you dont seem to understand. I have chosen to accpet it as my truth, and i'll accept other people may have their own. All that bugs me is when people say "you're wrong and you're an idiot" because no matter how much logic nor fact they come out with you can never know. Im not arrogant enough to say "i am right, you are all wrong".

The God/Satan/Barbra Streisand made me do it is a massive cop out i agree, but look at my point about good and evil (there are several good points about the existance or lack of therfore by several members already) and you will see what i mean.

Yes, by my beliefs i will have to justify myself to God come Death or Judgment Day or whatever the hell you wana call it. But thats it, i justiy myself to God. Not you.

As for your doubts about me pointing anyone to a bible...well i doubt you should be getting so worked up over matters regarding someone elses spiritual side when it is to be quite honest, none of your beeswax.

Throughout this thread and many others you have made many snide,derogative and often foul comments to any and all who do not agree to your own line of thinking. You belittle thosewho you seem to see as your intellectual inferiors, you dismiss others point of veiws just because they do not co-incide with your own and have been quite insulting.
yes, everything should be questioned, questioning leads to discovery. But faith is as you have said, involves taking a blind leap. Am i wasting my time? Maybe to you, not to me. Whats the problem? My faith is my buisness, deeply personal to me and not something i go running around. I feel guted enough as it is i've had to resort to attempting to explain it on the internet of all places.

I started my peice in this thread by saying that often those who do not beleive in the existance of god or gods and force their way of thinking on you as bad as those religious types who do. That was my point and i would be very very suprised if there wasnt a fair few people who agree with me.

[Pubic Wig]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Do you think Hitler thought he was Evil?

I duno, cant say i ever was in his mind. Were you?

[LesMts]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

I dunno, I think the guy who is breaking into a granny's flat inherently knows that raping her is not good.

Yes, but as I was pointing it out earlier there are neurological and physiological reasons why people can have poor or non-existant impulse control.
Extreme example but if this guy breaking into a granny's flat and raping her is an example of "evil", would you change your mind if you found out he'd had a brain tumour at the time? Or had recently suffered brain damage (however slight) in some kind of accident?
These are stark examples but even individual differences (i.e. not pathological) in neuroanatomy and neurochemistry are responsible for quite large differences in behaviour. I linked to an article earlier about how the brain can be chemically and physically re-wired depending on environment and how inescapable stress during development (such as a child in an abusive home might experience) can cause very real, very biological problems with aggression, decision making and impulse control.

[LesMts]

The idea of absolute morality being dictated by a God is one of the WORST things about religion.
The people who flew the planes on 9/11. Do you think they thought they were being evil? Not at all, they thought they were carrying out the ultimate act of GOOD.

[Keerin]

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

I started my peice in this thread by saying that often those who do not beleive in the existance of god or gods and force their way of thinking on you as bad as those religious types who do.

I can see where you are coming from with this but is it not the same as trying to convince a flat earth believer that the earth really is round?!

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by LesMts

Yes, but as I was pointing it out earlier there are neurological and physiological reasons why people can have poor or non-existant impulse control.
Extreme example but if this guy breaking into a granny's flat and raping her is an example of "evil", would you change your mind if you found out he'd had a brain tumour at the time? Or had recently suffered brain damage (however slight) in some kind of accident?
These are stark examples but even individual differences (i.e. not pathological) in neuroanatomy and neurochemistry are responsible for quite large differences in behaviour. I linked to an article earlier about how the brain can be chemically and physically re-wired depending on environment and how inescapable stress during development (such as a child in an abusive home might experience) can cause very real, very biological problems with aggression, decision making and impulse control.

It is a rather extreme example you have used, as the majority of convicted rapists did not have a brain tumour at the time of the offence, nor does being abused as a child give someone free reign to abuse others as an adult.
It is still an evil act imo, and the majority of offenders who talk about themselves, will admit they knew it wasn't right or good when they did it.
(I know someone who used to councel sex offenders.)

[RiseAgainst]

Originally Posted by LesMts

The idea of absolute morality being dictated by a God is one of the WORST things about religion.
The people who flew the planes on 9/11. Do you think they thought they were being evil? Not at all, they thought they were carrying out the ultimate act of GOOD.

great point. pretty sure everyone here would consider it an act of evil, yet to them they thought it was the greatest thing they could achieve.

so maybe the guy raping the granny in her flat could also think the same?

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by LesMts

The idea of absolute morality being dictated by a God is one of the WORST things about religion.
The people who flew the planes on 9/11. Do you think they thought they were being evil? Not at all, they thought they were carrying out the ultimate act of GOOD.

True. Isn't this fundementalism though? Something I have already said is a dangerous thing, and we talked about brainwashing in religion earlier in this thread.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by RiseAgainst

great point. pretty sure everyone here would consider it an act of evil, yet to them they thought it was the greatest thing they could achieve.

so maybe the guy raping the granny in her flat could also think the same?

I doubt it. I would be pretty sure thay didn't use the bible to persuade themselves it was a good act. Although you do find that in religions E.g. honour killing (often involves rape as a justified act). Again, though, this would be fundementalism IMO.

[RiseAgainst]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

It is still an evil act imo, and the majority of offenders who talk about themselves, will admit they knew it wasn't right or good when they did it.

i know its not right or good to eat 15 McDonalds in a day, but i doubt anyone would consider it evil....

see the 9/11 example posted above as well....when does evil come out of opinions and into actual reasoning?

[RiseAgainst]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

I doubt it. I would be pretty sure thay didn't use the bible to persuade themselves it was a good act. Although you do find that in religions E.g. honour killing (often involves rape as a justified act). Again, though, this would be fundementalism IMO.

Ive seen many many instances of "Satanists" who have raped and murdered people believing what they