The non-thinking that is Religion.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

Im nit picking now, but since this thread started about Dawkins...i would quite like to know if anyone has read (or where i can get my grubby little hands on) 'The Dawkins Delusion' - Alistar McGrath which is a response by a Christian Theologist/Cellular Biologist?

Sorry, we edit here. Heres a nice quote regarding Faith. "while faith, rather like love, must involve factual knowledge, it is not reducible to it".

I've not read the book but every review I've read of it has thoroughly debunked it as being pisspoor and an abject failure as an attempt to gun Dawkins down.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

It is still an evil act imo

It seems to me that your definition and understanding of 'evil' is just as limited as your definition and understanding of 'supernatural' was. It's almost as if you're deliberately trying to not see the (extremely obvious) point being made by others.

Are you doing this deliberately? Or do you genuinely not 'get it'?

As far as I can tell you've got a very 'black and white' view of the world and seem incapable of understanding what Les and others have said.

If this comes over as 'personal' it's cos it might be, I've read your replies and I'm flabbergasted that you're repeatedly missing the point entirely.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

I dont go out preaching that i am right and everyone who doesnt beleive me will burn in Hell because thats a horrible horrible thing to do.

That's what your Bible says you should do though, and that's what will happen to non-believers!

You seem to like *some* ideas but not others, unfortunately the Bible kind of dictates that you should believe all of it.

Revelation 22:17-19
New International Version (NIV)

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

There you go, 'God' is telling you NOT to ignore parts of the Bible.

[LesMts]

Originally Posted by bumperbrew

It is as close as we can get to objective reality in the sense that it is as equidistant from certainty as absolutely any other understanding of the world.

So, if you were faced with the prospect of a pagan type who said they were going to cast a spell to melt your head or a physicist who said he had a beam which would melt your head, which are you going to allow to practise on you?

How does deconstructionism deal with the fact that scientific technology works? Within and without cultural or linguistic context? Praying doesn't. Spells don't. Crystal-healing doesn't. These are all ways of seeing the world which you are claiming are equidistant from objective reality.

Perhaps I'm just not understanding deconstruction. I've read on the subject but not deeply. It strikes me as intellectual filibustering.

[Pubic Wig]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

I'm flabbergasted that you're repeatedly missing the point entirely.

Often so are you.

As i have said, i have no need nor wish to justify or even expalin my faith to anyone. Why should I? I cannot prove to you anymore that God exists as you can disprove. Like Dawkins im sure you will scoff at that but now i am frankly beyond giving a rats ass. As you have said, its my problem not yours. Your problem is the arrogant and superior nature you present based on your dislike of religion which you have said stems from a fundementalist upbringing. From this you have claimed releiogn is evil.

You have your way of thinking, i have mine, Lemits has his, Kate another and so on, so on so on. Not one of us will be able to prove that we were right or the other was wrong most likely until we are dead, and then im failry sure we will be beyond caring, true?

Throught this threa you have come accross very very insulting and arrogant. Im not alone in thinking this and would say that very Dawkinish of you (good or bad, you can decide yourself). No one is denying you or any other aethiest their right to non belief but you have constantly said the world would be a beter place without religion and im sorry, i dont accept that at all.

I am sorry that this personal statment was made but some of the stuff you have come out with mate is generaly nasty.

[: : Scott : :]

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

...constantly said the world would be a beter place without religion and im sorry, i dont accept that at all.

I don't accept that either, and I'd argue with anyone who did. However, I think the world would be a better place without religion now.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by : : Scott : :

I don't accept that either, and I'd argue with anyone who did. However, I think the world would be a better place without religion now.

I'm not a fan of organised religion, but can't see how that would ever happen.


There's a repeat of the Atom programme, the quantum physics one, on BBC4 just now, just started.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

Often so are you.

I've not missed a single point, bucko. You've not yet managed to make a coherent one....

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

As i have said, i have no need nor wish to justify or even expalin my faith to anyone. Why should I?

Why should you? Because your 'God' pretty much commands you to? Is *that* a good enough reason? Or is your 'faith' so weak and watery that you can't describe it without fear of it blowing away on a gentle breeze?

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

I cannot prove to you anymore that God exists as you can disprove.

The balance of probability, combined with observation of the reality of the Universe around me is somewhat indicative of a non-existent 'god'. I don't need to prove he doesn't exist, cos I'm not basing any system of 'faith' on his non-existence (or otherwise). On the other hand YOUR 'eternal soul' very much depends on 'him' being real. You'd make a rubbish missionary btw, you need to believe it yourself before you can start converting others.

And I don't think you understand the whole Christian 'faith' well enough to profess any form of belief in it. Maybe you should go back to that Bible you're so fond of pointing others in search of enlightenment at?

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

Like Dawkins im sure you will scoff at that but now i am frankly beyond giving a rats ass. As you have said, its my problem not yours.

In that case why aren't you 'doing a Jesus' and turning the other cheek? You're not responding in an especially 'christian' way.

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

Your problem is the arrogant and superior nature you present based on your dislike of religion which you have said stems from a fundementalist upbringing.

I haven't said that at all, anywhere. I have commented that my fundamentalist upbringing has enabled me to have a good knowledge of Biblical text and arguments. At no point have I said that my upbringing has led directly to my feelings towards religion now.

YOUR problem is you genuinely seem to be rather clueless about the 'faith' you claim to embrace. Your repeated refusal to explain why you believe (and even *what* you believe) leads me to suspect you're not entirely sure yourself. I may well be wrong in this but I get the feeling you're not as confident in your beliefs as you'd like to be.

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

From this you have claimed releiogn is evil.

No, as I've already said, my upbringing has nothing to do with my current stance on the harmfulness of religion.

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

You have your way of thinking, i have mine, Lemits has his, Kate another and so on, so on so on. Not one of us will be able to prove that we were right or the other was wrong most likely until we are dead, and then im failry sure we will be beyond caring, true?

True, but Les and I (though we argue in different ways) are both coming from a rational viewpoint where the existence of things needs to be proved before we can accept them. At the moment the greatest amount of evidence seems to indicate that there is no 'god'....so we are not being unreasonable to take this as the case.

At least those of us coming from the point of view of reason are *trying* to prove our 'way of thinking', religious types just reply 'it's true because it is' and then start bleating on about how we should respect their 'faith'. People like myself and Les are willing to entertain the idea that we are probably wrong about a lot of things but are trying to learn as much as possible, people like yourself are just retreating behind this shield of 'faith' and are doing the metaphorical equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'la la la, I'm not listening'.

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

Throught this threa you have come accross very very insulting and arrogant.

I probably have, but I don't honestly care, I am 100% certain of the position I'm stating. As I have already said elsewhere, I have more respect for those who believe the Bible to be entirely true than those who pick and chose what they want (I notice btw that you haven't responded to my quotes from Revelation about 'God' not wanting people to take anything away from 'his' word). Liberal Christians are just as bad as peddlers of Intelligent Design IMO.

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

Im not alone in thinking this

Oh! Is that meant to make me feel like I'm being talked about in disapproving tones by large groups of people? Oh no! What SHALL I do??

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

and would say that very Dawkinish of you (good or bad, you can decide yourself)

Have you actually read or watched and Dawkins? Or are you basing this on what other people have said?

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

No one is denying you or any other aethiest their right to non belief

How generous of you! My, we atheists should feel LUCKY that the religious masses *tolerate* our denial of dark ages superstition!

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

but you have constantly said the world would be a beter place without religion and im sorry, i dont accept that at all.

Tell me why then! Tell me what religion makes better in the world today. Point out a way that religion genuinely benefits mankind (and no, 'it gives people hope' isn't going to cut it) in a way that secular work cant and I'll stop posting in this thread.

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

I am sorry that this personal statment was made but some of the stuff you have come out with mate is generaly nasty.

Forceful, yes. Argumentative, most likely. 'Nasty'? Not at all.

[: : Scott : :]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

I'm not a fan of organised religion, but can't see how that would ever happen.

No offense but if you're serious, what you can't see could fill a warehouse. It would happen because more people have comfortable lives and don't need religion as a crutch; it's a trend that's been happening for decades here and as consumerism, comfort and other "Western" ideals spread this trend will occur in other places. Religious people of even the currently popular denominations who look moderate now will look nuts in twenty generations.

[: : Scott : :]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

...Dawkins...

Man Dawkins is really really annoying.