The non-thinking that is Religion. - Page 35

Thee Alex · 26th October 2007, 11:29 AM

humndislocation · 26th October 2007, 11:35 AM

I think its time people rejected the so called "science" that says babies are made by two parents. They are quite clearly designed and made in factories.

If you saw a sand-castle on a beach, would you assume that it'd been the product of reproduction between a male sand-castle and a female sand-castle? Of course not! You'd assume that someone DESIGNED and BUILT it!

LesMts · 26th October 2007, 11:36 AM

I'm off to intelligently design some cheese on toast.

xdavidx · 26th October 2007, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by humndislocation

would you assume that it'd been the product of reproduction between a male sand-castle and a female sand-castle? Of course not! You'd assume that someone DESIGNED and BUILT it!

don't be ridiculous.

I would assume that a male castle had impregnated a female sand and they had given birth to some hideous half-breed, and I would gather the townsfolk with pitchforks and torches to stone it and let it burn in righteous flames.

Keerin · 26th October 2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuartmaxwell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Keerin · 26th October 2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LesMts

I'm off to intelligently design some cheese on toast.

I wish I could do that but god intelligently designed teeth which rot and so I just had two fillings and I've got a frozen mouth. I won;t know if I'm eating cheese or my tongue

Thee Alex · 26th October 2007, 12:08 PM

I bet if she prayed REALLY hard.....a passing person might help her out. Surely that she isn't still there is a testament to the power of GOD!

Thee Alex · 27th October 2007, 10:50 AM

Anyway, Pubic Wig, do you agree with slavery? Seems a little odd that you're avoiding answering....

[edit]Actually, I'll open that up to any of the 'believers' we have on this board. I am genuinely interested in how you intend to reconcile the irreconcilable.

Thee Alex · 30th October 2007, 01:55 PM

No answers? I sent Pubic Wig a link to a pdf of 'Letter to a Christian Nation' by Sam Harris and he didn't even say thank you (I'm sure Christians are meant to be polite!)

Come on Christians! If you can PROVE to me, using ONLY the Bible, that 'God' is really anti-slavery then I will CONVERT!!

Can't say fairer than that! As Christians you are COMMANDED by 'God' to try and convert people! So, get to it!

alien_syndm · 1st November 2007, 10:47 PM

OK Alex I'll see what I can do but I fear you have already made up your mind before you hear anything. Thirty-five pages so far, alot for me to backtrack.
This could be a long post, ok better get started....

There seems to be alot of what I call evangelical atheism going on here. It's the very aggresive kind which states that if you believe in God (or some sort of deity) then you are stupid. It implies that if you look at the evidence and don't reach the same conclusion as the atheist then you are dumb. It must of course be because you don't understand science and are not as smart as the atheists, otherwise you'd reach the same conclusion as them. That in itself is a rather worrying/dangerous school of thought surely and I don't think I have been unfair in representing the way certain atheists seem to argue their case. Of course not all atheists are the same, just as all Christians, Muslims, Sikhs etc are not the same either.

Your world view will affect how you interpret evidence, no matter how much you try to be unbiased. Two people can look at the same piece of evidence and reach totally different conclusions.

Atheism is a religion too, in every sense of it. You have to BELIEVE there is no God. Many atheists are very protective of their religion as this thread demonstrates. They are out there preaching their gospel, just the same as Christians, Muslims and everyone else is. The atheist religion is usually tax supported though !

Dawkin's name always seems to come up alot. I have the God delusion and have read it. If that's the best argument atheism has to offer then I'm not particularly impressed. The entire book could be summed up by "If God made the world, who made God ?" That's Dawkins argument. There is of course numerous rambling about various gripes with Christianity and pages and pages of nothing more than conjecture about how this religion "virus" has infested our minds, perhaps via some mis-firing meme.
Now Dawkins and his many disciples believe that the universe just appeared out of nowhere with no intelligent input. A spinning singularity exploded and began the universe ? Where did this come from ? Nowhere, it just appeared out of nothingness. Of course science merely doesn't understand it yet, it will one day of course right ? From this explosion matter formed itself. Of course quite how natural selection is supposed to act on non-living matter is anyone's guess. This matter then went on to form stars, planets, galaxies etc. From this life somehow managed to create itself and then gradually began to evolve into more and more complex forms over billions of years.
All this happened by itself with no intelligent guiding force. That's quite a leap of faith, no ? Just as big, if not greater than the leap of faith needed to believe it was created by an intelligent creator surely. If I made a model of the solar system and asked people to come round and view it and I was asked who made the model........if I replied "It formed itself" noone would believe me, yet they are quite willing to believe the actual solar system did
indeed form itself.

The thing is Dawkins calls religious people stupid and says he is smart. What started the big bang ? Where did all the matter come from ? What was before the big bang ? Answers ? They don't have any but if you believe something else you are stupid. How does that work ? Who made God ? Well I would say God is infinite and outwith time. There has to be something infinite in the universe. Something outwith time, something beyond time. Perhaps matter/energy is infinite and has always been there. I think it makes more sense to believe that an intelligent creator is infinite and created the matter and energy. Why do Dawkins and his discipiles label themselves the smart ones though when their beliefs sound just as "silly" if you will. There is actually a movement for atheists who want to be known as "brights".
The Brights' Net - Home Page
Hey check us out, we're the clever people who don't believe in God !

It's an amusing side note where the word universe came.
Uni = singular, verse = spoken sentence. God said "Let there be..."

I have 35 pages to catch up on here, alot to go through. It's hard to address every single point I want to but gradually I will get there I hope.
Let's try and keep it non-personal eh ?

Dashingmajor · 1st November 2007, 11:37 PM

My dictionary defines religion as "belief in , or the worship of, a god or gods". It also says that Atheism is "the belief that there is no god". Atheism isn't a religion that I follow. I don't worship the belief that there is no god.
Alex may well be what you'd call a 'devout' atheist, but he is consistently backing up his arguments with evidence and or sources to make his points credible.
As far as I can see he is challenging religious people to have the courage of their convictions and do as their scripture asks of them.
Unfortunately, said scripture (in this case the bible, as no other religious have presented an argument in this thread) is full of contradictions, and I think it's entirely right to challenge those in this day and age where so much is performed under the banner of religion.

I'm not going to call anyone stupid for believing in god, but from my perspective, it just seems outlandish and far fetched that some form of deity exists. One that is omnipotent, and omniscient. Infinite power and knowledge, but flawed, and has created flaws?
I just don't buy it.
I guess that if you want to use Dawkins, then I am what he would describe as a class 6 agnostic, and I will continue to live my live with the understanding that there is no god until I can know that there is no god, in the same way that religious people know there is.

Keerin · 2nd November 2007, 12:38 AM

to me, an argument about religion is as useless as an inflatable kettle or whatever. I would be quite hapy to assume that if someone says they are a christian they either have not read a bible or are qite happy with their god being rather mental. If someone told me they believed in god, that doesnt mean they believe what the bible says (or the torah or whatever), it just means they believe in god. I;m sure there are people who believe in an all powerful deity who created us but who think the bible is complete pish.

I agree that people who blindly follow are completely stupid and delusional and I think being a "nice person" because you are scared of the repercussions when you die is a complete cop out and this type of behaviour does a disservice to the very essence of humanity; free will.

I found a brilliant quote in a history book about the industrial revolution which made me think of this thread. I can't quote it word for word but it basically said that when they first built the railways, the gravel paths which were built for coach travel (horse coaches) we not destroyed or built over, but left and the train lines ran along side the gravel paths so that there was as little conflict as possible between train users and those who wished (or had to0 take a coach.

Over time, the gravel paths were being used less and less, but they because roads for cars and whatnot. This is a good way of looking at religion for me. The gravel path represents religion and the fast train represents both Alex's view of god and the speed at which science is explaining away any reason for religion. There will always be a need for religion, just as the gravel path was always needed, but it evolved, just as religion will evolve. Already we are seing multitudes of christian scientists who believe in both god and science to explain lifes mysteries, for example.

I really hope someone understands what i have tried to say there... :/

I can't see a time where there is no religion in the western world as people need it as a crutch.

26th October 2007, 11:29 AM	#511 (permalink)
Thee Alex UGS Assassin Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Solihull, West Midlands Posts: 4,198 Band: Wülfstabber, The Black Plums, Catface, DJ Wrong Homer, Wings & Claws, Señor Citizen, WRRRMS	YouTube - Sam Harris at Idea CIty '05

27th October 2007, 10:50 AM	#518 (permalink)
Thee Alex UGS Assassin Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Solihull, West Midlands Posts: 4,198 Band: Wülfstabber, The Black Plums, Catface, DJ Wrong Homer, Wings & Claws, Señor Citizen, WRRRMS	Anyway, Pubic Wig, do you agree with slavery? Seems a little odd that you're avoiding answering.... [edit]Actually, I'll open that up to any of the 'believers' we have on this board. I am genuinely interested in how you intend to reconcile the irreconcilable. Last edited by Thee Alex : 28th October 2007 at 01:20 PM.

1st November 2007, 11:37 PM	#521 (permalink)
Dashingmajor Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cupar Posts: 1,743 Band: Myvatn	My dictionary defines religion as "belief in , or the worship of, a god or gods". It also says that Atheism is "the belief that there is no god". Atheism isn't a religion that I follow. I don't worship the belief that there is no god. Alex may well be what you'd call a 'devout' atheist, but he is consistently backing up his arguments with evidence and or sources to make his points credible. As far as I can see he is challenging religious people to have the courage of their convictions and do as their scripture asks of them. Unfortunately, said scripture (in this case the bible, as no other religious have presented an argument in this thread) is full of contradictions, and I think it's entirely right to challenge those in this day and age where so much is performed under the banner of religion. I'm not going to call anyone stupid for believing in god, but from my perspective, it just seems outlandish and far fetched that some form of deity exists. One that is omnipotent, and omniscient. Infinite power and knowledge, but flawed, and has created flaws? I just don't buy it. I guess that if you want to use Dawkins, then I am what he would describe as a class 6 agnostic, and I will continue to live my live with the understanding that there is no god until I can know that there is no god, in the same way that religious people know there is. __________________ -.-- --- ..- \| .- .-. . \| .- \| -.-. ..- -. -

2nd November 2007, 12:38 AM	#522 (permalink)
Keerin UGS Site Writer Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: probably work Posts: 6,519 Band: Welcome Home, Explorer; Vulsellum; Altruist	to me, an argument about religion is as useless as an inflatable kettle or whatever. I would be quite hapy to assume that if someone says they are a christian they either have not read a bible or are qite happy with their god being rather mental. If someone told me they believed in god, that doesnt mean they believe what the bible says (or the torah or whatever), it just means they believe in god. I;m sure there are people who believe in an all powerful deity who created us but who think the bible is complete pish. I agree that people who blindly follow are completely stupid and delusional and I think being a "nice person" because you are scared of the repercussions when you die is a complete cop out and this type of behaviour does a disservice to the very essence of humanity; free will. I found a brilliant quote in a history book about the industrial revolution which made me think of this thread. I can't quote it word for word but it basically said that when they first built the railways, the gravel paths which were built for coach travel (horse coaches) we not destroyed or built over, but left and the train lines ran along side the gravel paths so that there was as little conflict as possible between train users and those who wished (or had to0 take a coach. Over time, the gravel paths were being used less and less, but they because roads for cars and whatnot. This is a good way of looking at religion for me. The gravel path represents religion and the fast train represents both Alex's view of god and the speed at which science is explaining away any reason for religion. There will always be a need for religion, just as the gravel path was always needed, but it evolved, just as religion will evolve. Already we are seing multitudes of christian scientists who believe in both god and science to explain lifes mysteries, for example. I really hope someone understands what i have tried to say there... :/ I can't see a time where there is no religion in the western world as people need it as a crutch. __________________ Welcome Home, Explorer \|Vulsellum\|Scum Killer http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...6/scan0002.jpg

26th October 2007, 11:35 AM	#512 (permalink)
humndislocation Hardcore is serious guys Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dundee Posts: 5,932 Band: Blasphemous Necrorapist	I think its time people rejected the so called "science" that says babies are made by two parents. They are quite clearly designed and made in factories. If you saw a sand-castle on a beach, would you assume that it'd been the product of reproduction between a male sand-castle and a female sand-castle? Of course not! You'd assume that someone DESIGNED and BUILT it!

26th October 2007, 11:36 AM	#513 (permalink)
LesMts Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Fundee Posts: 757	I'm off to intelligently design some cheese on toast.

26th October 2007, 12:08 PM	#517 (permalink)
Thee Alex UGS Assassin Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Solihull, West Midlands Posts: 4,198 Band: Wülfstabber, The Black Plums, Catface, DJ Wrong Homer, Wings & Claws, Señor Citizen, WRRRMS	I bet if she prayed REALLY hard.....a passing person might help her out. Surely that she isn't still there is a testament to the power of GOD!

30th October 2007, 01:55 PM	#519 (permalink)
Thee Alex UGS Assassin Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Solihull, West Midlands Posts: 4,198 Band: Wülfstabber, The Black Plums, Catface, DJ Wrong Homer, Wings & Claws, Señor Citizen, WRRRMS	No answers? I sent Pubic Wig a link to a pdf of 'Letter to a Christian Nation' by Sam Harris and he didn't even say thank you (I'm sure Christians are meant to be polite!) Come on Christians! If you can PROVE to me, using ONLY the Bible, that 'God' is really anti-slavery then I will CONVERT!! Can't say fairer than that! As Christians you are COMMANDED by 'God' to try and convert people! So, get to it!

1st November 2007, 10:47 PM	#520 (permalink)
alien_syndm Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: dundee Posts: 1,435	OK Alex I'll see what I can do but I fear you have already made up your mind before you hear anything. Thirty-five pages so far, alot for me to backtrack. This could be a long post, ok better get started.... There seems to be alot of what I call evangelical atheism going on here. It's the very aggresive kind which states that if you believe in God (or some sort of deity) then you are stupid. It implies that if you look at the evidence and don't reach the same conclusion as the atheist then you are dumb. It must of course be because you don't understand science and are not as smart as the atheists, otherwise you'd reach the same conclusion as them. That in itself is a rather worrying/dangerous school of thought surely and I don't think I have been unfair in representing the way certain atheists seem to argue their case. Of course not all atheists are the same, just as all Christians, Muslims, Sikhs etc are not the same either. Your world view will affect how you interpret evidence, no matter how much you try to be unbiased. Two people can look at the same piece of evidence and reach totally different conclusions. Atheism is a religion too, in every sense of it. You have to BELIEVE there is no God. Many atheists are very protective of their religion as this thread demonstrates. They are out there preaching their gospel, just the same as Christians, Muslims and everyone else is. The atheist religion is usually tax supported though ! Dawkin's name always seems to come up alot. I have the God delusion and have read it. If that's the best argument atheism has to offer then I'm not particularly impressed. The entire book could be summed up by "If God made the world, who made God ?" That's Dawkins argument. There is of course numerous rambling about various gripes with Christianity and pages and pages of nothing more than conjecture about how this religion "virus" has infested our minds, perhaps via some mis-firing meme. Now Dawkins and his many disciples believe that the universe just appeared out of nowhere with no intelligent input. A spinning singularity exploded and began the universe ? Where did this come from ? Nowhere, it just appeared out of nothingness. Of course science merely doesn't understand it yet, it will one day of course right ? From this explosion matter formed itself. Of course quite how natural selection is supposed to act on non-living matter is anyone's guess. This matter then went on to form stars, planets, galaxies etc. From this life somehow managed to create itself and then gradually began to evolve into more and more complex forms over billions of years. All this happened by itself with no intelligent guiding force. That's quite a leap of faith, no ? Just as big, if not greater than the leap of faith needed to believe it was created by an intelligent creator surely. If I made a model of the solar system and asked people to come round and view it and I was asked who made the model........if I replied "It formed itself" noone would believe me, yet they are quite willing to believe the actual solar system did indeed form itself. The thing is Dawkins calls religious people stupid and says he is smart. What started the big bang ? Where did all the matter come from ? What was before the big bang ? Answers ? They don't have any but if you believe something else you are stupid. How does that work ? Who made God ? Well I would say God is infinite and outwith time. There has to be something infinite in the universe. Something outwith time, something beyond time. Perhaps matter/energy is infinite and has always been there. I think it makes more sense to believe that an intelligent creator is infinite and created the matter and energy. Why do Dawkins and his discipiles label themselves the smart ones though when their beliefs sound just as "silly" if you will. There is actually a movement for atheists who want to be known as "brights". The Brights' Net - Home Page Hey check us out, we're the clever people who don't believe in God ! It's an amusing side note where the word universe came. Uni = singular, verse = spoken sentence. God said "Let there be..." I have 35 pages to catch up on here, alot to go through. It's hard to address every single point I want to but gradually I will get there I hope. Let's try and keep it non-personal eh ?