The non-thinking that is Religion.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by Thebigyin04

well thats fine then u have answered what i have tried to find out , that YOU think religion is wrong .. beacause you thinking religion is wrong and religion actually being wrong , are not one in the same .

I think my reasons for thinking religion is wrong are pretty comprehensive. Throughout this thread the 'faithful' have repeatedly failed to counter these points (and many others).

Do you have any persuasive arguments for religion NOT being wrong?

At this moment religion is causing Pakistan to teeter on the edge of civil war, religion is causing ministers in Afghanistan to be blown up, religion is causing Iraq to be practically in a state of civil war, religion is causing mothers to sacrifice their lives for no reason, religion is convincing Pro-lifers that the life on an adult abortion doctor is worth less than a blastocyst, religion is keeping millions upon millions of people from accepting how AMAZING it is to be alive now - making them think that a shit life now is ok as they'll be getting rewarded AFTER their deaths!

And you think that it's just an issue of one 'opinion' against another? Religion served it's purpose, it explained the world to primitive, uneducated masses in the past. But compare the level of knowledge of even the wisest man 1000 years ago to the level of understanding a 10 year old has in our modern world; a child would laugh at what was once seen as the upper limits of human knowledge!

What seemed reasonable to our ancestors does not automatically become reasonable in the modern world just because it is old! You wouldn't accept a doctor who didn't accept Germ Theory coming to operate on a loved one would you? Of course not, you'd ask to speak to someone who had knowledge of modern medical techniques and practices. Why then should we accept people basing their entire lives around books written 2 millennia ago? In ANY other area of life it would be seen as insanity, and dangerous insanity at that.

The onus is on the 'faithful' to provide a valid reason to believe, to supply a copper bottomed validation of their beliefs....something that can robustly deflect the overwhelming tidal wave of scientific evidence. This is something they have routinely and repeatedly failed to do.

So, tell me why you think I'm wrong.

[humndislocation]

Originally Posted by Thebigyin04

well thats fine then u have answered what i have tried to find out , that YOU think religion is wrong .. beacause you thinking religion is wrong and religion actually being wrong , are not one in the same .

Not sure how you get that from his post, given that the reasons stated are pretty objective.

Obviously any judgement on whether or not anything is "wrong" is going to come down to opinion, but I don't see how this applies any more in this case than in any other, and somehow I doubt you'd have said what you just said if Thee Alex had been talking about how something like paedophilia or murder is wrong.

[Rebelius]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

The onus is on the 'faithful' to provide a valid reason to believe, to supply a copper bottomed validation of their beliefs....something that can robustly deflect the overwhelming tidal wave of scientific evidence. This is something they have routinely and repeatedly failed to do.

So, tell me why you think I'm wrong.

but they only need to convince themselves - why does it matter to you what someone else believes?

not all christians believe every word in the bible. I know you're going to come back with something along the lines of "BUT THAT'S WHERE THEIR RELIGION CAME FROM, IT'S THE SOURCE OF THEIR RELIGION THEY THINK IT'S THE WORD OF GOD - THE MUST DO EVERYTHING IT SAYS" - which seems pretty ignorant to me.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by Rebelius

but they only need to convince themselves - why does it matter to you what someone else believes?

Because my loved ones and I could very easily end up being killed by a war caused by believers? Or doesn't that bother you? On one hand you've got a fundamentalist Christian with his finger on the button in the Whitehouse, and on the other you've got Islamist Middle Eastern nations, who don't fear death AT ALL actively trying to get hold of nuclear weapons. Chuck Israel into the mix and you've one big mess of religious tension and hatred just waiting for someone to make the first move....which is why it matters to me.

Originally Posted by Rebelius

not all christians believe every word in the bible. I know you're going to come back with something along the lines of "BUT THAT'S WHERE THEIR RELIGION CAME FROM, IT'S THE SOURCE OF THEIR RELIGION THEY THINK IT'S THE WORD OF GOD - THE MUST DO EVERYTHING IT SAYS" - which seems pretty ignorant to me.

How is that ignorant? If they don't accept all the book how can they work out which bits are right and which bits are wrong?
If they don't believe the whole thing then they are, to be frank, bad Christians. If they do, then they are bad humans.

[Thebigyin04]

Originally Posted by humndislocation

if Thee Alex had been talking about how something like paedophilia or murder is wrong.

i was assuming that everyone agrees that religion is socially acceptable , where as paedophilia and murder are not .. but i get your point , what i have said has not been very well thought out throughout , possibly the brain fuzz of my up n coming dissertation hand in.


maybe i am just befuzzled because i wouldnt have the audacity to actually say "religion IS wrong"

religion does cause conflict : but so do politics even when they are supposedly not religiously motivated.

Religion is often blamed for many of the world tragedies, but sometimes it just acts as a front for political power/greed and sometimes there is a touch of the green eyed monsters... i think thats why in alot of religions you find great segregations between those who create religious madness and those who are just stuck amongst the madness victims of religious extremism.

but aye humandislocation my comments were craply founded

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by Thebigyin04

maybe i am just befuzzled because i wouldnt have the audacity to actually say "religion IS wrong"

It's a shame there aren't more people willing to stand up and try and rid our world of this Middle Ages madness.

[Rebelius]

there's also a lot of conflict in the world which isn't caused by religion.

Is it ok with you if someone is religious and has no means or intent to harm anyone else by their actions? if not, why not?

don't you realise that by trying to rid the world of religion, you'd just become another faction in the religious conflicts you talk about?

[Thebigyin04]

how is getting rid of all religion any better than one getting rid of the other... if religion was gone , some other cultural differences would arise , maybe if there was no religion from the beginning murder would be acceptable , theft , the damming of thy parents .. you get my point ..

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by Rebelius

there's also a lot of conflict in the world which isn't caused by religion.

Yes, but the biggest threat to us all at the moment comes from the inevitable confrontation between Christianity and Islam.

Originally Posted by Rebelius

Is it ok with you if someone is religious and has no means or intent to harm anyone else by their actions? if not, why not?

No I don't think it is ok. Someone who is religious will try to pass that onto their children/loved ones/family (they're actually instructed to by their respective faiths). A child is no more a christian, jew or muslim than I'm Optimus Prime. I sincerely believe religious indoctrination of the young to be tantamount to child abuse.

Originally Posted by Rebelius

don't you realise that by trying to rid the world of religion, you'd just become another faction in the religious conflicts you talk about?

I don't because I don't (if you get what I mean). Unlike the religious, I don't have a book telling me I'll go to hell if I don't try and convert everyone to my point of view. Also I'm not going to go on some kind of crusade to forcibly rid the world of religion. All I can do is talk to people and hope that some of my (perfectly reasonable and logical) points sink in

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by Thebigyin04

how is getting rid of all religion any better than one getting rid of the other... if religion was gone , some other cultural differences would arise , maybe if there was no religion from the beginning murder would be acceptable , theft , the damming of thy parents .. you get my point ..

No I don't, cos your point is entirely flawed. You're equating morals with religion, something that the religious often do. It's a fallacy to suggest that morals would not exist without religion.

As I've pointed out elsewhere in this thread, a basic concept of right and wrong is an evolved trait, totally in keeping with the theory of natural selection (in case you don't want to go looking for the post the basics are this - two social groups have different attitudes. One thinks that murder, rape, theft etc isn't a good idea, the other is all for the murdering rapists and thieves. One of these social groups is more likely to survive than the other....and it's not the raping murderers. Over time a basic concept of morals becomes hard wired into us via natural selection)

Where do you think the religions of the world got their morals from? It certainly wasn't from 'god'

[Rebelius]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

No I don't think it is ok. Someone who is religious will try to pass that onto their children/loved ones/family (they're actually instructed to by their respective faiths). A child is no more a christian, jew or muslim than I'm Optimus Prime. I sincerely believe religious indoctrination of the young to be tantamount to child abuse.

A lot of religious people take the bits of their religion that they believe will be benificial to their lives, and not the detrimental bits. When's the last time you heard about a christian stoning someone to death? Not all of them try to convert everyone around them. My mum's a christian - she married an atheist, had 4 children, one decided to join the church when she was 18, I'm an atheist and have been since I was about 10. Not all christians take YOUR interpretation of the bible Alex.

[Thebigyin04]

a) i am not religious , i just have a balanced approach b) i am familiar with natural selection being of a