The non-thinking that is Religion. - Page 50

Hecate · 22nd November 2007, 03:59 PM

I remember a time when thread derailments and personal insults in serious discussion were jumped on by a pack of hounds.
Ah, the good old days.

Thee Alex · 22nd November 2007, 05:25 PM

Now you've started posting in this thread again, are you going to answer the very simple question I asked?

Hecate · 22nd November 2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Now you've started posting in this thread again, are you going to answer the very simple question I asked?

Why don't you hound the other people who haven't answered you, or are not atheists?
If this is the way things are going and everyone is going to complain about not being answered then I could start going on at Kieran for not answering me too.

Alex, I am not now, or ever, going to discuss this with you so stop asking and commenting on it all over the fucking forum.

Thee Alex · 22nd November 2007, 05:42 PM

So you have no answer then.

Just as I thought.

Well argued Kate.

GobbHayte · 22nd November 2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

So you have no answer then.

Just as I thought.

Well argued Kate.

what makes you feel that you're in any position to demand that anyone explains their beliefs to you?
You have been repeatedly challenged to explain how atheism has been scientifically proven right and have failed to do so. You are the only person who has said that your beliefs are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong, nobody has tried to say that atheism is wrong. Kate, myself and others arguing with you in this thread have only contended that atheism has not been completely, categorically proven right. You have failed to offer any argument against this and have instead resorted to insults.
You are the only person who has posted in this thread who will not accept the possibility that you could be wrong, therefore it is only really you who should be forced to defend your personal beliefs.

AlanG · 22nd November 2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GobbHayte

what makes you feel that you're in any position to demand that anyone explains their beliefs to you?
You have been repeatedly challenged to explain how atheism has been scientifically proven right and have failed to do so. You are the only person who has said that your beliefs are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong, nobody has tried to say that atheism is wrong. Kate, myself and others arguing with you in this thread have only contended that atheism has not been completely, categorically proven right. You have failed to offer any argument against this and have instead resorted to insults.
You are the only person who has posted in this thread who will not accept the possibility that you could be wrong, therefore it is only really you who should be forced to defend your personal beliefs.

Is this an attempt at most ironic post award?

GobbHayte · 22nd November 2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanG

Is this an attempt at most ironic post award?

If you're referring to me attacking him for resorting to insults, aye, i have stooped just as low, or lower, but only once he'd already dragged the thread down to that level, which shouldn't have been allowed by you lot (the mods) in serious discussion to start with, according to your own rules.

AlanG · 22nd November 2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GobbHayte

If you're referring to me attacking him for resorting to insults, aye, i have stooped just as low, or lower, but only once he'd already dragged the thread down to that level, which shouldn't have been allowed by you lot (the mods) in serious discussion to start with, according to your own rules.

I was referring to you making claims about atheism and "proof" and Alex not being able to admit when he's wrong (can you link to that post btw). The irony is delicious.

If you want me to go and clear out every single post in here which is not 100% on topic you'll come off worst in the thread. Not a single post in this thread has been reported btw, so if you are going to get your knickers in a twist over us not "doing our job" then you do yours first and report the bad posts. As both humndislocation and myself have taken part in this thread I'm sure one of the others will take an impartial look at them.

I've been trying to clear out the pointless personal attacks on Alex when he has made a point the other person can't refute, but apart from the past few pages it's been alright. The reason for these is poster A says X, poster B says you're wrong cos of Y. poster A then demolishes Y of its logical fallacies and poster B returns saying "nya nya you're still wrong, but I won't back it up".

Thee Alex · 22nd November 2007, 06:23 PM

Yes, Mods, it's YOUR fault that GobbHayte and Kate can't string together a semi-coherent argument!

You should ban yourselves!

GobbHayte · 22nd November 2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanG

I was referring to you making claims about atheism and "proof" and Alex not being able to admit when he's wrong (can you link to that post btw). The irony is delicious.

What claims have i made about atheism? All i have said is that it has not been scientifically proven right, it is a point of view and not an absolute truth.
How is this wrong?
What did i say about Alex not being able to admit he was wrong? I've only ever tried to get him to admit that his way of seeing things could be wrong, that he has not been proven right. I never said that he was wrong, except that he was wrong to consider himself superior to others who have different beliefs.

This actually feels just like arguing with Christians.
----------------------------------------------------------
Christian argument
"It is the absolute truth that God exists"
"No it's not it's just one way of seeing things"
"yes it is, you're going to hell if you don't think like me"

-----------------------------------------------------------
Atheist argument
"It is the absolute truth that God doesn't exist"
"No it's not it's just one way of seeing things"
"yes it is, you're an illogical, creationist, anti-science flat-earther if you don't think like me"
------------------------------------------------------------
Atheism is a faith, just like religion, faith that there is no god and religion is wrong. It's not based on scientific fact any more than religion is.

Curate · 22nd November 2007, 06:48 PM

Atheism isn't a faith, and it certainly isn't if you use "faith" in its religious context.

GobbHayte · 22nd November 2007, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curate

Atheism isn't a faith, and it certainly isn't if you use "faith" in its religious context.

what, a strongly held belief with no evidence to back it up? I'd say atheism falls in to that category.

AlanG · 22nd November 2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GobbHayte

What claims have i made about atheism? All i have said is that it has not been scientifically proven right, it is a point of view and not an absolute truth.
How is this wrong?
What did i say about Alex not being able to admit he was wrong? I've only ever tried to get him to admit that his way of seeing things could be wrong, that he has not been proven right. I never said that he was wrong, except that he was wrong to consider himself superior to others who have different beliefs.

This actually feels just like arguing with Christians.
----------------------------------------------------------
Christian argument
"It is the absolute truth that God exists"
"No it's not it's just one way of seeing things"
"yes it is, you're going to hell if you don't think like me"

-----------------------------------------------------------
Atheist argument
"It is the absolute truth that God doesn't exist"
"No it's not it's just one way of seeing things"
"yes it is, you're an illogical, creationist, anti-science flat-earther if you don't think like me"
------------------------------------------------------------
Atheism is a faith, just like religion, faith that there is no god and religion is wrong. It's not based on scientific fact any more than religion is.

Do you have some inability to understand the meaning of "religion", "atheism" and "faith"?

It was ironic because I have yet to meet an atheist who's position was not "I see no evidence for the existence of God, but if evidence were presented to me which shows it's existence then I will believe he exists". I have yet to meet a believer who when pushed on it won't define a situation where they would cease believe in a God.

Arguing that "atheism has not been proven right", is completely missing the point of what atheism is. It's exactly the same as claiming that there's no scientific evidence for the existence of chocolate teapots not orbiting the sun, therefore anyone who states that there are probably not any chocolate teapots orbiting the sun is holding a position with no evidence. It only serves to show the person stating it doesn't understand the burden of proof.

Your strawman quote from an atheist is just as bad. Find me one atheist who holds that position.

Atheism as faith is yet another piss-poor argument. Like baldness being a hair colour and nudeness being a type of clothing.

As for being not based on science, it is based on all the observational data on the universe the human race has ever amassed. Huge amounts of information, and not one single iota of it points to the existance of Gods and more than it points to the existance of unicorns or fairies. Religion is a position held solely through the ignorance of science. For the example from the largest religious sect in the UK. Christianity is based on a book which contains "truths" about the universe which were held by bronze age goat herders who worshipped a god of war who lived at the top of their nearest mountain. The science within it shows that we live on a flat earth which was created 6000 years ago, our moon emits light, pi is 3 and that Bats are a type of bird. To claim that religion and atheism are based on an equivalent understanding of science can only be explained by ignorance, stupidity or trolling. You can pick which one applies.

22nd November 2007, 03:59 PM	#736 (permalink)
Hecate Don Kate (UGS Mafia) Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: somewhere Posts: 2,477 Band: Vulsellum	I remember a time when thread derailments and personal insults in serious discussion were jumped on by a pack of hounds. Ah, the good old days.

22nd November 2007, 05:25 PM	#737 (permalink)
Thee Alex UGS Assassin Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Solihull, West Midlands Posts: 3,910 Band: Thee Moths, Wülfstabber, Explosions and Screaming, Catface, DJ Wrong Homer, Señor Citizen, Thee Infinite Golden Universe, Sports, WRRRMS, former member of Lipsick!	Now you've started posting in this thread again, are you going to answer the very simple question I asked?

22nd November 2007, 05:42 PM	#739 (permalink)
Thee Alex UGS Assassin Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Solihull, West Midlands Posts: 3,910 Band: Thee Moths, Wülfstabber, Explosions and Screaming, Catface, DJ Wrong Homer, Señor Citizen, Thee Infinite Golden Universe, Sports, WRRRMS, former member of Lipsick!	So you have no answer then. Just as I thought. Well argued Kate.

22nd November 2007, 06:23 PM	#744 (permalink)
Thee Alex UGS Assassin Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Solihull, West Midlands Posts: 3,910 Band: Thee Moths, Wülfstabber, Explosions and Screaming, Catface, DJ Wrong Homer, Señor Citizen, Thee Infinite Golden Universe, Sports, WRRRMS, former member of Lipsick!	Yes, Mods, it's YOUR fault that GobbHayte and Kate can't string together a semi-coherent argument! You should ban yourselves!

22nd November 2007, 06:48 PM	#746 (permalink)
Curate Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Leith Posts: 242 Band: Curators	Atheism isn't a faith, and it certainly isn't if you use "faith" in its religious context.