The non-thinking that is Religion.

[GobbHayte]

Originally Posted by AlanG

Do you have some inability to understand the meaning of "religion", "atheism" and "faith"?

It was ironic because I have yet to meet an atheist who's position was not "I see no evidence for the existence of God, but if evidence were presented to me which shows it's existence then I will believe he exists". I have yet to meet a believer who when pushed on it won't define a situation where they would cease believe in a God.

Arguing that "atheism has not been proven right", is completely missing the point of what atheism is. It's exactly the same as claiming that there's no scientific evidence for the existence of chocolate teapots not orbiting the sun, therefore anyone who states that there are probably not any chocolate teapots orbiting the sun is holding a position with no evidence. It only serves to show the person stating it doesn't understand the burden of proof.

How many people would claim to have seen chocolate teapots orbiting the sun? I already made my point about anecdotal evidence, i'm not going to bother making it again. You're now doing what Alex has been doing all through this thread, picking and choosing which bits of an argument to pay attention to and which to ignore, so you can take part of it out of context and "disprove" it, just like the most fervent bible-bashers do.
I've only argued that atheism hasn't been proven right because Alex has tried to argue that it HAS.

Originally Posted by AlanG

Your strawman quote from an atheist is just as bad. Find me one atheist who holds that position.

Hmmmmmmmm........Alex would be a fine example.

Originally Posted by AlanG

Atheism as faith is yet another piss-poor argument. Like baldness being a hair colour and nudeness being a type of clothing.

As for being not based on science, it is based on all the observational data on the universe the human race has ever amassed. Huge amounts of information, and not one single iota of it points to the existance of Gods and more than it points to the existance of unicorns or fairies. Religion is a position held solely through the ignorance of science. For the example from the largest religious sect in the UK. Christianity is based on a book which contains "truths" about the universe which were held by bronze age goat herders who worshipped a god of war who lived at the top of their nearest mountain. The science within it shows that we live on a flat earth which was created 6000 years ago, our moon emits light, pi is 3 and that Bats are a type of bird. To claim that religion and atheism are based on an equivalent understanding of science can only be explained by ignorance, stupidity or trolling. You can pick which one applies.

Are you actually capable of taking in information that doesn't back up your view of the world? I have never, ever at any point attacked atheism as a way of seeing things, only the belief that atheism is absolutely right and every other way of seeing things is definitely wrong. To say "I can see no proof that god exists, so i feel no need to believe in god" is a perfectly valid point of view. To say "Atheism is the only right way of seeing things and all others are wrong" implies that you have faith that god will not at some time in the future be proven to exist.

[Thebigyin04]

I think this post is done , nobodys proving or disproving anything .. and its actually gone too personal jousting now , for the sake or arguments , i am going to conclude that i accept TheeAlex's views , i dont agree hes right but i respect them within the bigger picture .... ta daaa!

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by GobbHayte

Hmmmmmmmm........Alex would be a fine example

Nope, if someone proved to me tomorrow that 'god' existed I'd happily believe in him, just like I believe in my car, the bed I'm currently sitting on and the iPod I'm currently listening to through the factually existent speakers on my windowsill.

[LesMts]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear......

I'll be on the main campus for a bit tomorrow so I'll see about tickets then.

Back on topic: There are Muslim medical students handing out anti-evolution pamphlets up at the medical school, not far from my office. Medical students.

[GobbHayte]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Nope, if someone proved to me tomorrow that 'god' existed I'd happily believe in him, just like I believe in my car, the bed I'm currently sitting on and the iPod I'm currently listening to through the factually existent speakers on my windowsill.

Bit of a change from your original assertion that science had already proven religion wrong, is it not?

[Thee Alex]

A scientifically proved 'god' would be an entity existing within the laws of the physical universe, it would be no more a supernatural being, worthy of worship, than my shoes are.

This is a position I think you'll find entirely consistent with my posts throughout this thread.

[GobbHayte]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

A scientifically proved 'god' would be an entity existing within the laws of the physical universe, it would be no more a supernatural being, worthy of worship, than my shoes are.

This is a position I think you'll find entirely consistent with my posts throughout this thread.

Have I at any point argued that anything is worthy of worship? You started this thread to say that science had already proven religion wrong, that the only right way of viewing the world is the atheist way. If that's true then how could it even be possible that god could be proven to exist in the future?

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by GobbHayte

Have I at any point argued that anything is worthy of worship? You started this thread to say that science had already proven religion wrong, that the only right way of viewing the world is the atheist way. If that's true then how could it even be possible that god could be proven to exist in the future?

Science HAS proven religion to be wrong.

But if a real 'god' was shown to exist, in a way that was as obviously inarguable as the existence of the internet or the shitness of Phil Collins, then I wouldn't *have* to believe in it - no more than I have to *believe* in the sky, or Cadbury's, or Gordon Brown. Things that just 'are' don't need anyone to believe in them.

Any 'god' discovered would have to be a being that existed within space and time and obeyed the physical laws of reality, even calling it 'god' would be a stretch, when it would merely be a very powerful being.

A Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Hindu/whatever 'god' does not exist. I don't feel I am making too bold a claim in saying that.

Personally I'm sure that there will never be a 'god' that, if discovered at all, doesn't turn out to be something else.

Certainly we are not going to be 'judged' when we die, and we're not going to go to heaven or hell.

Your Pantheist stance is, to my mind, nothing more than a sign of cowardice, of being scared of admitting that there is no 'god'. Your version of 'god' is so entirely worthless, pointless and powerless that it may as well not exist....which is where we came in.

[Keerin]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

Why don't you hound the other people who haven't answered you, or are not atheists?
If this is the way things are going and everyone is going to complain about not being answered then I could start going on at Kieran for not answering me too.

Alex, I am not now, or ever, going to discuss this with you so stop asking and commenting on it all over the fucking forum.

hey leave me out of this!

i'm still to get evidence to you of one or two things, i havent forgotten!

[Keerin]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Your Pantheist stance is, to my mind, nothing more than a sign of cowardice, of being scared of admitting that there is no 'god'. Your version of 'god' is so entirely worthless, pointless and powerless that it may as well not exist....which is where we came in.

Nothing to do with anyone or anything else here, just for my own curiosity but whats the difference between pantheism and agnosticism?

[Thee Alex]

Not much as far as I can tell, they're both equally feeble points of view.

[LesMts]

Originally Posted by Keerin

Nothing to do with anyone or anything else here, just for my own curiosity but whats the difference between pantheism and agnosticism?

Pantheists belive that God and the universe are one and the same. To the pantheist "God" is just another word for "pure physics" basically, although some pantheists would believe in a conscious universe.
An agnostic is someone who is unsure about the existence of a personal God.