The non-thinking that is Religion.

[LesMts]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Sounds to me like you're a rational, secular, atheist Les.

The universe doesn't need a god, doesn't show any evidence of containing a god, and 'god' 'himself' seems to be a projection of rather base human characteristics (whichever religion people believe in).

Certainly, I agree with you and I usually describe myself as an atheist.
My point is that, if pushed, I would have to concede that I cannot prove absolutely that, for example, Thor, doesn't exist. No matter how strong my suspicion that he doesn't exist is (and it's pretty fucking strong), it could never be proven.
As a result I'd have to, as much as it pains me to write the words, concede further that I believe there is always the possibility that Thor does exist. So I can't be an atheist. I must be a can't-know-agnostic.
My disbelief in God isn't absolute, it's based on the balance of probabilities from looking at the evidence and thinking about the logical implications.
An atheist, to me, is a person with absolute disbelief in God or Gods.

[Dashingmajor]

I'm enjoying this thread.
I consider myself an atheist. I was brought up with Christianity, but have always found the concept of god a bit Saturday morning TV cartoonish.
My mum is a devout Christian, and church elder and goes to church every Sunday. I don't see the point in trying to get her to change the way she feels about her God.
But I'll not introduce any children I have to that concept, which at it's crudest level is a crock of shit.

Originally Posted by Pubic Wig

I like it. heehee, its been a pretty good thread.

It could only be improved by the addition of some points by Starjade

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

In my opinion people who believe things that are clearly untrue ARE idiots and fools. If I told you I believed in Father Christmas would you nod sagely and say 'I respect that' or would you laugh me out of the building?

What exactly are you trying to say about Santa??

[earmuffin]

I recommend everyone set Thee Alex's posts to ignore. I'm all for debates when they're rational (fuck, even if it's just funny), but when someone is this damned ignorant it's beyond a joke.
Plus, I don't want the vein in the old dears' head to pop when this turns into his usual specialty, the slanging match.

[Lynnie]

I just spent ages typing out a good reply and for some reason it got lost. Im not writing it out again however my main point was

Some people believe because they need to believe. The majority of peple i know have "found their faith" becuae they have experienced personal tragedy (not death) and wanted to think that there was something better for them, that their life served a purpose and what they had gone through was for a reason and not mearly because they got dealt a shit deal. they wanted to feel guided and safe. If people need to believe there is a god to feel like that then why not? What harm are they doing. Its very few people that actually carryout extremist acts purely due to their religion. Im sure someone told me that the islamic extremists were not acting in accordance with their religious veiws (maybe i was misinformed).

I would consider myself to be an agnostic. I wouldnt consider myself to be sitting on the fence, I have not yet formed a belief/opinion on the existance of god.

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by earmuffin

I recommend everyone set Thee Alex's posts to ignore. I'm all for debates when they're rational (fuck, even if it's just funny), but when someone is this damned ignorant it's beyond a joke.
Plus, I don't want the vein in the old dears' head to pop when this turns into his usual specialty, the slanging match.

Hmmm, ignorance is now to be defined as 'having a sound understanding of the concepts and knowing what the fuck he's talking about' is it?

Still, you won't read this, you've got me set to 'ignore'.

Here's a question for you - If I'm set to 'ignore' do I still exist?

EDIT - btw, excellent contribution to this thread. Good work

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by Lynnie

Some people believe because they need to believe. The majority of peple i know have "found their faith" becuae they have experienced personal tragedy (not death) and wanted to think that there was something better for them, that their life served a purpose and what they had gone through was for a reason and not mearly because they got dealt a shit deal. they wanted to feel guided and safe. If people need to believe there is a god to feel like that then why not? What harm are they doing.

They are harming themselves by believing a lie. I feel sad for them, because handing over responsibility for their well-being to a non-existent supernatural being won't solve anything and will prevent them, in many cases, from improving their lives.

Absolving themselves of responsibility by thinking they've handed themselves over to 'god' is a great waste of human life.

[^_mincher_^]

So how do you propose we get the entire world to conform to the ideal of no religion?

Perhaps write a book outlining a moral, sociological structure, distribute it to masses and then make sure they adhere to said code by having weekly meetings? How about Sunday? Does that clash for anyone?

I'm almost 100% sure that certain groups in the past have used people's fanaticism for belief in a higher purpose as a tool for social control, personal gain or resolution of feuds. This is inherently wrong.

On the other hand, there are others who have used it to develop structure, calm and self-assurance in many lives. Many good people have come about from this and initiated great deeds.

I find it saddening and unfortunate that respect for the good amongst believers is destroyed by the corruption and greed of others.

Yes it, religion, may be a lie but we strive, in our society, for all to be equal and therefore we cannot be judge, jury and executioner to the beliefs of each individual based on the group or religion they have accepted. We can only judge the actions of individuals and prosecute or uphold accordingly.

I must state at this point, I am neither pro nor anti-religion. This is my belief.

[humndislocation]

Originally Posted by LesMts

My point is that, if pushed, I would have to concede that I cannot prove absolutely that, for example, Thor, doesn't exist. No matter how strong my suspicion that he doesn't exist is (and it's pretty fucking strong), it could never be proven.
As a result I'd have to, as much as it pains me to write the words, concede further that I believe there is always the possibility that Thor does exist. So I can't be an atheist. I must be a can't-know-agnostic.

As I said, if you don't believe in a God, you're still an atheist. There is always the possibility that ANYTHING exists, but conceding that, doesn't imply that you believe in it.

I was slightly wrong in my definition of agnosticism, it's someone that believes that the existence of a god is unknowable OR unknown. It's still completely compatible with atheism.

As for an argument for why non-extreme variants of religious belief are still harmful, I would argue that since religion belief is based on faith, and not evidence, that it's very easy for extremist variants of a religion to pop up. If a scientist claimed that the earth is flat, with only the most flimsy evidence to back up their claims, they'd be laughed at. If a worshiper of Moblor the sky dragon claims that all true Moblor followers must murder non believers, and that those that disagree are heretics, then there's not really much you can do to argue with that, since the whole belief system is based on faith rather than evidence in the first place.

I don't think destroying religion would solve the problems caused by religion though. Irrational thinking isn't confined to religion. White supremacism and holocaust denial are two belief systems that aren't necessarily religious, but rely on faith, sticking to the same belief in the face of opposing evidence.

[ArchFlameTera]

i dont think much of any of the various religions either,

its just so far fetched its unreal.

there are some postives as people have pointed out.


i dont think theres much of a point trying to convince anyone there beliefs are wrong though, i doubt anyone who believed in such fantasy all there lives would suddenly decide it was a fairytale all along just because someone says so. id imagine they would have realised that before!

[ArchFlameTera]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

I feel sad for them, because handing over responsibility for their well-being to a non-existent supernatural being won't solve anything and will prevent them, in many cases, from improving their lives.

I saw a programme a few months back that had something regarding this which was fairly shocking.

I dont know if this is just an american thing since i havent heard of it before, but the various churches the programme was at, all talked about a "rapture."

they believed one day soon when the end of the world if nigh, all believers would literally disappear off the face of the earth, and non believers would be left here for the world to end.

then it cuts to an african village. they were speaking to some really, really poor folk that had nothing. They said, that since they believed in god they didnt have to worry about anything since the rapture would be coming, and thats why they dont need to try and sort out there life.

The sheer poverty was ridiculous, when things get as bad as that can god sort out something to eat? a place to stay?

im very sure a massive amount of people benefit from religion. But its also clear that a lot of people could seriously fuck themselves up because of it too.

[scottyboy]

i think that basically refers to the end of the world etc. some crazy american types believe it will be brought about by the america vs the middle east blah blah. i guess they think bringing about world war 3 will bring about doomsday and thus get them into heaven. this is basically from watching some similar documentary. it was so ridiculous i didn't think much of it

[Hecate]

There is a lot of brainwashing in religion, like the poverty example that Rob gave, just as there is in cults and fundementalism, where sadly trusting and naive people end up giving away their free choice and rights.
There have been so many good points made in this thread that I don't have the energy to go into it all, and have also enjoyed the comedy moments, but I need to keep this short right now.

One point that struck me was Alex saying impatiently to the world that they all need to hurry up and make up their minds cos they are stupid and subservient if they don't do it now.

Why?

It is a ridiculous, dictatorial and harmful attitude to have. But in the end Alex you will be the most hurt from having such expectations from other people, most of whom you don't know.

I want to add that I am agnostic, but not an atheist. I have a spiritual side, but follow no religion. I am perfectly comfortable that it could be something that just helps me through life and it is always a positive thing for me. I enjoy meditating and gardening apart from being a good mum and a creative caring person, but certainly never turn the other cheek if someone treats me or my family and friends badly irl.
Many things I do make me feel more in touch with the natural world, and I definitely do NOT hand over responsibility for my life to some unseen god, as Alex so rudely suggested about people. In fact, the way I am and think and feel gives me more drive to be a responsible and caring person, and is very self-empowering.

I don't ever force my beliefs on others, but enjoy debating like this and hearing what other people think. But gladly share meditations and thoughts with friends.

Like it or lump it.

Edit: Oh yeah, and Morel Orel

edit edit: I have no problem with anyone's beliefs/non-beliefs as long as they are decent people and don't force their beliefs down other people's throats and reject them for not completely complying with their personal opinion.