Argument stuff from christian hardcore thread moved to here...

[xglitter-me-upx]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

Yes.

And just for the record, on the pro-life issue, the people who are fighting really hard to impose this backwards policy on the rest of the world, are not pro-choice in the least. They don't want to allow abortions AT ALL, under any circumstances, even if the woman was raped, and will go to any lengths to try to get this policy legitimised, including death threats to those involved in abortion clinics. Seems like a very double standard to me, pro-life??....but only those who agree with them!
They masquerade under the banner of caring about humanity, but are full of double standards and hypocricy, and the vast majority of them hold fascist political views.

Some of them would allow it in the case of if the mother's health was in danger and there are also a few who would agree with it in the case of rape.
But I see that hypocrisy in itself.
The claim to be so caring about the feotuses, yet only when two people choose to lay down and have sex and happened to get pregnant by accident.

Those pro lifers with that mentality seem to just want to use the pregnancy as a punishment. They tell people that's the consequence of having sex and to accept their responsibilities.

I have met(online) alot who are also pro-capital punishment.
I choose to call them 'anti-choice'

Anyway, de-rail. I need to spend less time in abortion debates.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by xglitter-me-upx

Some of them would allow it in the case of if the mother's health was in danger and there are also a few who would agree with it in the case of rape.

I think your use of the word allow sums up their tyrranical position perfectly. Who are they to say what's right or wrong for an individual in their decision on whether to continue a pregnancy?

Originally Posted by xglitter-me-upx

But I see that hypocrisy in itself.
The claim to be so caring about the feotuses, yet only when two people choose to lay down and have sex and happened to get pregnant by accident.

Those pro lifers with that mentality seem to just want to use the pregnancy as a punishment. They tell people that's the consequence of having sex and to accept their responsibilities.

Yes, and in the same note, many of them are totally against decent sex education being available to every child and fight for their "right" to educate their own children in their own way, whatever that might be. What about a child's rights to the truth instead of some mumbled twisted version that suits hardline christians? It's a recipe for promoting child and adult sexual abuse, and then forcing these people to give birth to a child when they had no educated choice in the first place about becoming pregnant.

Originally Posted by xglitter-me-upx

I have met(online) alot who are also pro-capital punishment.
I choose to call them 'anti-choice'

Anyway, de-rail. I need to spend less time in abortion debates.

I don't see the connection between the abortion debate and the capital punishment debate?

[DAYWALKER]

Originally Posted by Daveoftheband

it's all very well arguing amongst ourselves and trying to out-intellect everyone else with long winded ways of saying, "above poster is full of shit"

what i'd like to know is, why is the cause of all this conflict of opinion (frere777) relying on his mate to defend him?

i want to here his side of things, i'm actually quite pissed off at the fact that he's caused all this flaming and insults but hasn't got the balls to justify/explain himself.

he isnt relying on me to defend him....he doesnt need to be fuckin defended

i guess he chooses to ignore people that have a mental rant at him wanting to start a band with fellow christians

he doesnt want to start a bloody christian hardcore band

if u take a look at his influences its hardly bands that preach the bible

the only band i could c where u could of gatherd that he wants to start a chrisitan hardcore band is underoath

[Hecate]

Well it wouldn't be hard for him to come in and say that for himself now would it?
If he doesn't then I guess he'll have to live with the doubt people have of him and his future band.
I, for one, would be very distressed if people thought these things of me, but yes it is his choice to clear up this mess or not...

But anyone who refuses to deny such allegations, I and the vast majority, would be very suspicious of him. He would be a fool to leave people guessing.

Which either leaves him classed as a fool, or a narrow-minded evil little bigot.

[xglitter-me-upx]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

I think your use of the word allow sums up their tyrranical position perfectly. Who are they to say what's right or wrong for an individual in their decision on whether to continue a pregnancy?

And that's just it, they think they are the moral police so the feel they have a right to tell women want they can and cannot do with their bodies.
Some say that if abortion was to be illegal and women dies due to botched abortions 'they got what they deserve'.

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

Yes, and in the same note, many of them are totally against decent sex education being available to every child and fight for their "right" to educate their own children in their own way, whatever that might be. What about a child's rights to the truth instead of some mumbled twisted version that suits hardline christians? It's a recipe for promoting child and adult sexual abuse, and then forcing these people to give birth to a child when they had no educated choice in the first place about becoming pregnant.

Yeah, I watched a great episode of Penn & Teller here. Penn and Teller: Bullshit! on Abstinence . 30 minutes but well worth the watch.

I find the education some of the christian pro lifers have absurd.
For example, some of them are taught that the morning after pill is the same as an abortion.
There have been 2 people in the past two days saying to others.. 'use birth control! if you don't want a baby use condoms.. have you ever heard of double bagging?!'
Even when it was pointed out to them how stupid double bagging is and how it was even more likely to cause an unwanted pregnancy they still couldn't accept that fact.

Like I said, I spend alot of time in a pro choice vs. pro life debate group and I have to say the majority of them are Americans.
I am astounded at the way some of them act and hearing about doctors or pharmacists refusing the fill their BC or MAP prescriptions.

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

I don't see the connection between the abortion debate and the capital punishment debate?

Well it's just brought up by some people that their label of pro life is wrong if they are for capital punishment.
They are anti-choice, but some of them take offence at that.



I've yet to meet someone so extreme in their pro life views from the UK, I am sure I will come across someone at some point though.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by xglitter-me-upx

And that's just it, they think they are the moral police so the feel they have a right to tell women want they can and cannot do with their bodies.
Some say that if abortion was to be illegal and women dies due to botched abortions 'they got what they deserve'.




Yeah, I watched a great episode of Penn & Teller here. Penn and Teller: Bullshit! on Abstinence . 30 minutes but well worth the watch.

I find the education some of the christian pro lifers have absurd.
For example, some of them are taught that the morning after pill is the same as an abortion.
There have been 2 people in the past two days saying to others.. 'use birth control! if you don't want a baby use condoms.. have you ever heard of double bagging?!'
Even when it was pointed out to them how stupid double bagging is and how it was even more likely to cause an unwanted pregnancy they still couldn't accept that fact.

Like I said, I spend alot of time in a pro choice vs. pro life debate group and I have to say the majority of them are Americans.
I am astounded at the way some of them act and hearing about doctors or pharmacists refusing the fill their BC or MAP prescriptions.





Well it's just brought up by some people that their label of pro life is wrong if they are for capital punishment.
They are anti-choice, but some of them take offence at that.



I've yet to meet someone so extreme in their pro life views from the UK, I am sure I will come across someone at some point though.

Thanks for that, you are obviously very well informed on the topic. One question; what are BC or MAP prescriptions?

[xglitter-me-upx]

Thanks.

I enjoy getting into well informed debates online. I feel like it keeps my brain in check.

Birth control and morning after pill prescriptions.

I think it's most common with the morning after pill, although I have heard of examples of birthcontrol, i.e. oral pills, not being filled by pharmacists because of their religious beliefs.
While it's easy enough to find another one to fill the birth control without a serious outcome, the time taken to find a pharmacy to fill a morning after pill prescription can mean the difference between taking the pills, or having an abortion.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by xglitter-me-upx

Thanks.

I enjoy getting into well informed debates online. I feel like it keeps my brain in check.

Birth control and morning after pill prescriptions.

I think it's most common with the morning after pill, although I have heard of examples of birthcontrol, i.e. oral pills, not being filled by pharmacists because of their religious beliefs.
While it's easy enough to find another one to fill the birth control without a serious outcome, the time taken to find a pharmacy to fill a morning after pill prescription can mean the difference between taking the pills, or having an abortion.

Wow, I am really shocked that some American pharmacists refuse prescriptions to people based on their own twisted morals
Don't they have the hippocratic oath over there, to treat people to the best of their ability free from their own personal judgement of the situation? Or is that just for doctors?

[xglitter-me-upx]

I think it's pretty common, especially in the bible belt.
Some pharmacies don't even stock it if it goes against their beliefs.
A quick google said that doctors don't have to prescribe it, but must provide alternative options.

It's not even available over the counter. Alot of people are trying to change that.

I do know that there is a thing called Planned Parenthood which I believe dispenses emergency contraceptives and birth control among other services.
Although some pro lifers are even wanting to get these places shut down as some of them perform abortions.

[kj]

In the UK a lot of doctors base their decisions on whether to grant or refuse a woman the chance to have an abortion based on their own moral views. It's more prevalent in the US but is also common in the UK.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by kj

In the UK a lot of doctors base their decisions on whether to grant or refuse a woman the chance to have an abortion based on their own moral views. It's more prevalent in the US but is also common in the UK.

I'm afraid I don't have personal experience in this, but I am really surprised, and would be interested to hear more about this kj please?
I thought the hippocratic oath was in place to stop this kind of moral judgement getting in the way of a patient-centred approach.
Do you mean that many of them will sound off about the issue, but will grant whatever treatment the patient requires, as long as it's safe for their own health? Or do you mean, that some British doctors actually refuse abortions due to their own personal view on the subject?

[kj]

Originally Posted by freakonaleash

I'm afraid I don't have personal experience in this, but I am really surprised, and would be interested to hear more about this kj please?
I thought the hippocratic oath was in place to stop this kind of moral judgement getting in the way of a patient-centred approach.
Do you mean that many of them will sound off about the issue, but will grant whatever treatment the patient requires, as long as it's safe for their own health? Or do you mean, that some British doctors actually refuse abortions due to their own personal view on the subject?

As far as i know when you ask for an abortion, your GP will require that you seek two signatories (two other GPs) to approve the abortion. These are required by the hospital where the procedure is to take place. I might be a bit behind on things so this might not be exactly true but it's what i've been told.

The following is taken from Education for Choice

Who can refer a woman for an abortion?

Two doctors must approve a woman’s decision to end her pregnancy. A woman can usually obtain the first approval (otherwise known as a ‘referral’) from a doctor at a family planning or young person’s clinic like Brook. Most GPs will also refer for abortion. The second approval is normally given by the doctor at the clinic performing the abortion.

If a woman does not want to access an