goNorth, opinions?

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by gabrillowise

Think about art - a lot of people get paid to make corporate banners. That is art

I don't think it is though. Design/decoration/advertising are not art at all. Once a piece of work is used to decorate a McDonalds that painting (or whatever) ceases being 'art' and becomes 'decoration', the context is stripped from it and it stops meaning anything.

Of course, the realisation of this means that art is only 'art' if defined as such....which naturally leads one to conclude that that definition needn't even be made. So either EVERYTHING is 'art' or nothing is. I tend to believe that nothing is, and that 'art' is just a rather wanky word that has become attached to the purer forms of human creativity alongside anything else that involves making something.



Anyway, now I come to the Wisdom of Grievesy....

Originally Posted by grievesy

I'm confused. Where did I say you had to do music as a full job?

You didn't, but you did characterise those who don't do it as a full time job as being the kind of people who stack shelves in Tesco - as if having a real job denotes a lack of ambition or something.

Originally Posted by grievesy

Midem and Popkomm are pointless for your purposes. I'm not ignoring them. I just don't agree with them. Or should I have rolled over and conceded that you all know best!

What are my 'purposes', Grievesy? Cos I don't think I've made any statements about how *I* approach music in this thread. Sure I've made generalisations, but nothing specifically about myself. So, I want to know what you think my 'purposes' are.

Originally Posted by grievesy

I think we may just be talking at tangents. If you want to do music as a career great and if you want to make music for your mates in your bedroom that's great also.

Again you belittle those who don't follow a careerist path in music! Are you unable to comprehend that there is a vast, thriving area of the 'industry' that exists BETWEEN the 'Must get signed!' merchants and the bedroom noodlers? Where do bands who are fiercely DIY fit into your world view?

Originally Posted by grievesy

I personally think these things are of benefit even for a DIY for the points I have mentioned some people do not.

It seems to me that pretty much the majority of the people posting in this thread thing that these things are of very little benefit to them. Please tell me how applying corporate/music industry techniques will help DIY promoters, small labels, etc. I contend that the 'music industry' is a decaying corpse, and that 'seminars' are no more than the gases that emerge from every orifice.

Originally Posted by grievesy

Whilst I take on board the comments made by some of the members on here I don't have to agree with them.
I don't take onboard anything you say on here because I find spiteful and vindictive and a bit like a fat Danny Baker.

So you ignore my points because you've perceived some (none existent) personal attack on you? Read back over the thread - I've said your OPINIONS are wrong and called the BAND you (used to) manage 'shite'. You, on the other hand, have called me a 'cunt' and made the above statement.

The Thin, Godlike, Grievesy

[grievesy]

Wow. you must really hate me. I feel special. Anyway alex, it seems you can twist whatever i say in to making me out to be a shit. I'm truly not that fussed what you think of me. I'm really not hurt.
I just don't understand why you read so much into this.
How can my opinions be wrong. It's my opinion it's what I feel. Who the fuck are you to tell me it is wrong.

Do you think that I actually I mean how you interpret my posts or are just one of those people that like causing trouble. Middle child perhaps?
My gran told me when I was very young that there are people that are happy being happy and people happy being sad... I get the impression you are latter.

BTW. I used tescos as a generic occupation and the biggest employer in my home town. If you choose to look down at poeple who work in tesco. that is your want but it was never what I meant.

Any yes I am a bit fat, I don't give a fuck. I'm just a generally contented person. I can email you more photos of me if you want...

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by grievesy

Wow. you must really hate me.

I have absolutely NO opinion of you WHATSOEVER. Clearly you have trouble comprehending this.

Have you got a persecution complex?

[grievesy]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

I have absolutely NO opinion of you WHATSOEVER. Clearly you have trouble comprehending this.

Have you got a persecution complex?

I don't know, you said I was thin and godlike?

[kj]

We've had a really good discussion up till this point, let's try and keep it that way please.

[humndislocation]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

I don't think it is though. Design/decoration/advertising are not art at all. Once a piece of work is used to decorate a McDonalds that painting (or whatever) ceases being 'art' and becomes 'decoration', the context is stripped from it and it stops meaning anything.

I'm of the opinion that anything created with the intention of being art, is art, but that whether or not it's good art is a different story altogether.

My opinion is that a piece of art created purely commercial purposes is still art, it's just not very worthwhile art. Generally it's soulless and not worth paying attention to.

Same for music. Anything you create with the intention of being music, is music in my opinion, whether it's 5 minutes of car engines and dogs barking, or an amazingly complex symphony.

[Thee Alex]

Believe it or not, I'm actually interested in hearing what Grievesy has to say in reply to the points I raised earlier, sadly he seems more interested in flinging around personal insults.

So, to give him a chance to reply I'll ask again -

How does applying 'industry' business techniques help DIY bands/labels/promoters? And if an event like GoNorth is being held in Dundee isn't it reasonable that the music scene of that city should be involved, beyond a couple of token spots on 'showcase' bills?

It's shocking that KJ and UGS were left in the cold by the organisers of this event. UGS is the centre of the Dundee music scene IMO, with more local musicians/venues/promoters etc posting here than anywhere else.

Grievesy's stance seems to be that goNorth wasn't for the 'likes' of us, that it's more geared towards bands who are willing to take a hefty reaming from the industry to try and grab their 15 minutes - only a tiny percentage of the bands in Dundee match this description (The Law being one of them). Why didn't goNorth follow the route that the council followed at the turn of the century when they produced a genuinely useful directory for local bands etc and put on Idlewild, Gerils and Laeto at the Caird hall after a weekend of useful seminars hosted by local musicians and labels?

Seems a trick was missed here.

[grievesy]

Here we go again. I thought I have made this clear. but lets me humour this and go around the look again only to shot down for petty things.

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

How does applying 'industry' business techniques help DIY bands/labels/promoters? And if an event like GoNorth is being held in Dundee isn't it reasonable that the music scene of that city should be involved, beyond a couple of token spots on 'showcase' bills?

First off, The showcases were never a point I made. I think that the scheduling could have been more diverse. I have no visibility of the selection other than it was a panel.

As for what it could bring to DIY stuff. the answer is loads. Even if you are not interested in the Industry there was a lot of people there that could help. As I said before Stuart from the scottish Arts council who controls all the arts and music funding in Scotland was there. there were reps from PRS, PPL musicians union and other organisations like that. There were people from white space who off free recording time in Dundee. there were film makers who are willing to make videos for free. Other artists, people who book festivals and gigs. Just a good opportunity to network with other creative people you never know you could have been of benefit to them?

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

It's shocking that KJ and UGS were left in the cold by the organisers of this event. UGS is the centre of the Dundee music scene IMO, with more local musicians/venues/promoters etc posting here than anywhere else.

Agreed, and 2thumbs and riptide and many more but surely this is a learning point not a reason to shoot the event in the head.

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

Grievesy's stance seems to be that goNorth wasn't for the 'likes' of us, that it's more geared towards bands who are willing to take a hefty reaming from the industry to try and grab their 15 minutes - only a tiny percentage of the bands in Dundee match this description (The Law being one of them). Why didn't goNorth follow the route that the council followed at the turn of the century when they produced a genuinely useful directory for local bands etc and put on Idlewild, Gerils and Laeto at the Caird hall after a weekend of useful seminars hosted by local musicians and labels?

Not really I think it was for everybody. There was just so many people on here telling me it was not for 'them' Personally I don't see and 'like of us' to me there too much of a broad spectrum of genres on here.

You alway have to lay into this. The law were never part of this discussion so who bring them into it. They are 4 guys looking to make a career out of playing music. Music you might not like but this is no reason to berate them at any opertunity.


Now off you go pick holes in that....

[Thee Alex]

Originally Posted by grievesy

As for what it could bring to DIY stuff. the answer is loads. Even if you are not interested in the Industry there was a lot of people there that could help. As I said before Stuart from the scottish Arts council who controls all the arts and music funding in Scotland was there. there were reps from PRS, PPL musicians union and other organisations like that.

It's pretty difficult to get funding out of the SAC, and the PRS aren't really particularly relevant to any band going to DIY route if they're not getting played regularly on the radio. As for the Musicians Union....what are they going to do to help a young band (other than ask for money for fees)? You can't answer 'loads' and then give a handful of examples that aren't relevant.

Originally Posted by grievesy

There were people from white space who off free recording time in Dundee. there were film makers who are willing to make videos for free. Other artists, people who book festivals and gigs. Just a good opportunity to network with other creative people you never know you could have been of benefit to them?

From what's been said it seems unlikely that the other 'artists' there would be the types to offer help to bands that weren't interested in going down the 'Industry' route. Kudos for White Space for offering free recording time but wouldn't they have been better off at an event targeted at bands who have no money, rather than ones aiming to be bankrolled by labels? So far nothing said has given me the impression that this was anything other than a Record Industry backslapping fest coated in a thin veneer of 'Indie cool'

Originally Posted by grievesy

You alway have to lay into this. The law were never part of this discussion so who bring them into it. They are 4 guys looking to make a career out of playing music. Music you might not like but this is no reason to berate them at any opertunity.

Are you saying they don't believe in the music they make? That they're doing it just to make money?

[grievesy]

Originally Posted by Thee Alex

It's pretty difficult to get funding out of the SAC, and the PRS aren't really particularly relevant to any band going to DIY route if they're not getting played regularly on the radio. As for the Musicians Union....what are they going to do to help a young band (other than ask for money for fees)? You can't answer 'loads' and then give a handful of examples that aren't relevant.



From what's been said it seems unlikely that the other 'artists' there would be the types to offer help to bands that weren't interested in going down the 'Industry' route. Kudos for White Space for offering free recording time but wouldn't they have been better off at an event targeted at bands who have no money, rather than ones aiming to be bankrolled by labels? So far nothing said has given me the impression that this was anything other than a Record Industry backslapping fest coated in a thin veneer of 'Indie cool'



Are you saying they don't believe in the music they make? That they're doing it just to make money?

At what point did i say anything like i don't believe in the music they make. And i got SAC and i know plenty other who have. From Indie down to artists and folk music. If you don't ask you don't get.

[grievesy]

I find your agruments thin alex. Anyhow. I'm off to the pub. It's a friday night afterall.

Again, if anybody wants any advice or help about funding feel free to PM me.

[Thee Alex]

What's an agrument? Is it part of a Castle?